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1838 Stars Half Dime
mr1931S
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How does one tell the difference between small stars v. large stars on these? The difference is not at all obvious to me.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
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Have you checked out the "Coin Facts" site? There is wonderful blow-up picture there that shows the difference. It's subtle, but if you look the two varieties side by side, you can see it. One of the more obvious spots is the star between Ms. Liberty's head and the liberty cap. The small star really looks much smaller there than the large star.
If I remember an easy way...too busy to confirm this at the moment. Go on to the Internet and download an image of the obverse of each type. Then draw a line across the image connecting the base of the bottom stars. The two lines should bisect the coin's design differently. Let us know the result. Otherwise, I'll dig out my notes on Monday.
If it's a high grade example, it's very easy to spot from the rust on Liberty's arm holding the pole.
The 1838 "small stars" is one of the half dime die varieties that is very often misattributed, even by the grading companies.
This variety is defined by the V-1 obverse die which started out very rusty, and eventually was lapped (ground down) to reduce the rust pits.
Only after the lapping did the stars get very thin, although they are somewhat thin from the original rust.
They are not truly from small punches like they are on the 1838 small stars dime.
The V-1 obverse die was also paired with a different reverse, which is the V-2 die marriage.
Both V-1 and V-2 are classified as small stars, since they share the same obverse die.
Here are the PCGS CoinFacts images (best on the web!) for several high grade examples that PCGS slabbed as small stars:
pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=4318
Look at the "rusty arm" on the first 3.
The 4th coin (MS-64, Cert# 28641635) has a smooth arm, and is not a small stars.
Ditto for the 6th coin (AU-58, Cert# 33682497).
So PCGS got 7 of 9 (78%) correct on these higher grade examples.
It's harder to tell on lower grade examples, because the lumps on the arm may be worn smooth.
For those, it is helpful to know the die crack patterns on the 2 reverses (for V-1 and V-2).
V-1 reverse: crack above A2, crack in leaves between S1 and H. rusty on perimeter.
This reverse with crack at A2 only occurs on the V-1.
V-2 reverse: no cracks evident. not rusty. clash line from ME diagonal to wreath. (See photo below).
This reverse with ME diagonal clash line is used with V-2, V-4 and V-11, so it is not sufficient to identify V-2.
The V-2 obverse in the above photo has a big crack through Star13, concave upwards (it is a later die state of the same obverse die).
This is the 3rd coin on CoinFacts (MS-65, Cert# 29582779).
On this third coin, the arm is still very rusty, but most of the stars do not look small to me (Star 7 is partly gone, though).
This is why I advise: do not look at the stars, look at the arm!
Finally, just seeing a crack at Star 13 is not sufficient to ID a "small stars", because other 1838 dies have different cracks at S13.
I will check out @Insider2's metric.
Here is the metric described by @Insider2 .
The upper coin is a V-1 "small stars".
The lower coin is not "small stars".
However, I would have to try this metric on all (9) known 1838 obverses to see if it is helpful in identifying the V-1/V-2 obverse.
Exercise for the reader, to see if you have learned how to ID an 1838 "small stars" half dime:
The 1838 "Large Stars" CoinFacts page has 39 images.
One of them is a "Small Stars". (38/39 = 97% accurate).
Can you tell me which one?
pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=4317
Also, it is easy when you have two different coins to compare. Look at the size of the stars at each side of "Liberty's" head.
About 5 years ago I had one that was misattributed as the other. They fixed it.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Good thread... did not know about the 'rusty arm'.... Cheers, RickO
That's a great diagnostic.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
You guys have really been helpful in answering the question of whether my youngest son's metal detector find of 1838 half dime is small or large stars.
His coin has a smooth arm so it must be large stars or V-2. The piece has XF details and is the oldest coin he has found thus far with his detector.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
V-1 and V-2 both have the small stars obverse; sorry if my posts confused that.
The V- numbers run up to V-14 or V-15, so since the arm is smooth, it could be anything from V-3 to V-15.
If you'd like to post some photos of it, we could try to narrow it down further.
Pretty cool to find an 1838 while metal detecting!