DOES ANYONE TRUST BECKETT GRADING BGS BVG ?
petroneanthony
Posts: 5 ✭
**PURCHASED A BGS 9.5, WITH 3- 10'S AND 1-9.0, CRACKED IT OPEN AND RESENT TO BECKETT TO SEE WHAT I WOULD GET ON A REGRADE AGAIN.****
last week i purchased a 1993 Topps Derek Jeter Rookie graded BGS 9.5 with 3 sub-grades of 10's and one sub at a 9.0 which meant it received a 9.5 by a .5 on the surface grade WHICH RECEIVED A 9.0, so here’s what i did....i cracked it open and resent the card to see if possibly another grader would maybe give me a 10 on or 9.5 on the surface grade....well here’s what i got back !!!! centering 9.5 surface 9.5 edges 9.5 and corners 9.0 ..... not even 1 grade 10....so tell me ...how was this card first graded with 3 10's and now none and how did the surface grade go up???????? And more importantly, how could the CENTERING GRADE GO DOWN!!!!!!
now i have a basically run of the mill 9.5 with no 10's where as before i had at least a 500 dollar card with 3 10's....i am outraged at Beckett and want to know what kind of scam they are pulling with gem mint and pristine 10 cards. i was carful when cracking open and never once touched the card in the plastic, after opening I carefully cut the edge of the penny protector so they could remove the card once
received. never once did i touch the card itself with my fingers.
i am outraged at Beckett and want to know what is going on here and want to know...what are we paying for.
Comments
Grading is not (yet) an exact science. You sent in a 9.5 and they sent you back a 9.5. If you had multiple experienced people grade that card, you probably would get a slight variation in opinion. I would say Beckett did okay on this and you have a great card and got greedy.
This.
No way am I cracking out a 9.5.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Also, does Beckett offer 'Card Review'? If so, that was probably the way to go.
But I've never resubbed a card. I may in the future...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Excactly. The same results could have happened with PSA or SGC. Beckett is trustworthy, and a difference of .5 on the subgrades is not much at all when you consider humans are applying the grades.
Take it as a lesson learned to just resubmit in the holder for review, especially when you already have 3 perfect grades on a card.
yeah i agree with all comments so far...except i didn't do it to be greedy...i own numerous 9.5 gem cards with 3 sub 10 grades....8 of them to be exact, i just wanted to see what would happen as a test, it wasn't for profit because i dont resell and if it came back a 10 i would never have sold it....Im not a huge collector, i just do it for my son. So it just popped into my head one day and i said you know i wonder what would happen...but what was most intriguing was...that the centering went down...isn't it done by measurement ? ...if it was a 10 ...then it cant change, centering cant move...get my point.thats what made me wonder? Next as a test I was thinking about taking a pristine 10 and resending it to see what happens just to see. But now im probably not because i will lose a 10 card.
my question is , should beckett standardize there grading system by having criteria under magnification, and if its close or there is a questionable discrepancy, maybe have other graders for second opinions to make a ruling on the score.
i dont know, I'm not an expert ... so it is what it is....and I didn't know you could submit for a review , thats how dumb I guess
I am. So you learn something every day...so thanks for letting me know that i could submit for review
First of all it can happen with any third party grader. Second this is the reason the BGS 10 is a joke.
Any card that grades a BGS 10 is obviously a beautiful card but the notion that there is some super Gem Mint grade is laughable.
The most over priced card in the hobby is the 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. BGS 10 for this exact reason.
Any thought to possible damage, even slight, to the card in the crack out process? If a 10 is truly pristine any handling could easily drop the grade .05 to 1 point.
I don't think I've ever been able to find the Beckett grading standards to figure out what the difference is supposed to be between a 9.5 & 10 centering subgrade. If you think any of the TPGs are measuring and not just eyeballing centering, I've got some bad news for you.
For years i thought the grading process was much more elaborate than it was,using computers & the whole nine until i started commenting here and came across the old PSA grading video. Big letdown after that lol.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I've thought way too much about what it would take to do laser scanning/measurement/analysis/reporting. I'm not sure what it would take to be economical for a grading company to invest in something like that, but it seems like the technology is available. It would take a while to build up an AIs knowledge base of all the various card releases, but would take a lot of subjectivity out of the process.
To get a centering subgrade of 10, it would have to have 50/50 centering all around. It would receive a 9.5 centering subgrade if the centering is 55/45 on just one orientation, or a 9 if both l/r and u/d are 55/45. That's my understanding anyway.(I can't seem to find their grade explanations online anymore either; I have one at home I printed out last year, though).
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
I don't know how long the actual process takes now time-wise but if they ever go that route i can just imagine everything taking even longer than it does now.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
speaking of centering,i just came across this 4SC listing on ebay for an PSA 9 1988 Fleer Sticker of Jordan,i'm surprised the T/B tilt got this a 9.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
you gambled...and lost....deal with it....it happens to everyone who cracks out.
I'm not sure where people got the idea that tilt is penalized by PSA. From my observation, as long as the card meets centering standards, it is not penalized at all. There are cards like this all over eBay.
I pretty much only search for Jordan's on ebay so i miss cards like the one you posted. That Jordan is probably the worst centered copy i've seen for that sticker but i guess it does fall under the parameters. Does PSA's 60/40 to 65/35 on front for 9's take into consideration the top to bottom too?
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
60/40 means one side has 1.5 times more border than the other(70/30 means more than twice as much, and so forth...). Both the Jordan and Pat Corrales card pictured above have 60/40 or better centering regardless of a tilt(and I don't see much of a tilt on the Jordan, most of those Fleer basketball cards from 87-88 and 88-89 are like that and MUCH worse.)
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
I know what the 60/40 means,i'm asking does PSA use that number for the top to bottom as well as left to right? When i said tilt on the Jordan i meant the T/B centering being tilted to the top.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I just can't see how it can be called 60/40 centering when one side is the 60 on top and the other side is the 60 on the bottom. To me that has far worse eye appeal than a properly cut 70/30, but the problem with tilt is it is hard to quantify it. So since it is visually evident, I don't have a problem with PSA's decision not to penalize it.
erik,
I might be confused as to what you are asking and I am not trying to act like you're an idiot, so if it come across like that I mean no offense.
I assume any card grader looks at the left/right orientation and the up/down orientation separately and assign ratings as a card could be 50/50 l/r and 70/30 u/d. I am not sure how PSA views this vs BGS/BVG. Based upon their grade descriptions, both orientations must conform to the minimum requirements(if PSA says it must be no worse than 55/45 to be a 10, then that would mean 55/45 or better on both the u/d and l/r centering).
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
No worries,I didn't take it that way. It was an honest question and I admit i still have plenty to learn about the grading process. MJ's 88 Fleer Sticker has always been one of my favorite cards so i pretty much check out all of them that get listed and i thought that centering on that one stuck out more than other 9's even though it definitely falls under their grading standard.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I don't know how anyone can take Beckett seriously when they only put one year for NBA releases.
That 88 Fleer Jordan sticker 9 is a real bear as are most of the stickers from 88. That copy is actually really nice and I would be happy to own. Left to right is actually dead nuts.
The 9.5 and 10 grade from bgs is a joke. There's no way you can tell the difference. I believe the OP was trying for all 4 10 subgrades to get it in the black label which is another bologna yet brilliant market scheme.
For the same $400 price tag you could find better looking 9's,that's just my opinion and that's even with factoring the 4SC website discount.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I found the original post to be humourous. The card graded less and the OP complained on how it could possibly be graded less, yet was willing to send it in again, hoping that it would be graded more, which would make the graders as equally inconsistent the other way. As has been said before, grading is not an exact science and in many ways has turned into a game
I don't think the front is that bad, BUT I fear the back would have plenty of edge and bottom chipping. 4sharpcorners backs of cards are not shown for a reason in general, and this series is near impossible to find a back flawless.
Unless you're entirely bored, I would advise against this action. It's a losing proposition.
yeah, 2 things come to mind
1 ... yes, 10,000,000 million cards have been trusted to BGS
2 ... I thought one of the rules of this board is not to trash ANY grading company
I wont call out names, but I see remarks about 9.5's (Gem Mint) vs. 10 (Pristine)
and how this was a joke ...
I'm 45 years old, and remember Beckett being around before PSA
and remember the whole grading thing unfold
and remember people saying the same thing about "GEM" mint vs. just plain MINT
but that's ok now
and pristine isn't
I've seen the same thing
PSA 10, 9, 8, 7 & sometimes could not see the difference either
you know what is also funny
NOBODY calls out a guy with 3 posts bashing a grading company
BUT, I see it all the time concerning other companies
I guess when people see what they want to see, everything is A OK
............ yeah, I'm just a BGS buyer
NOPE ... just picked up my Mattingly PSA 10 Donruss rookie (absolute BEAUT of a card)
What is a joke is thinking some how you can determine the difference between a perfect card and a perfect card and some are 9.5 and some are 10. Not all PSA 10's for example are created equal. That said there are perfect Griffey's sitting in PSA slabs that could grade a 9.5 one day and a 10 another yet it sells for over three grand.
**> **The most over priced card in the hobby is the 1989 Ken Griffey Jr. BGS 10 for this exact reason. ****
I’m late to this thread but I’d volunteer Connor McDavids Young Guns RC for consideration of this title. While I haven’t checked the numbers in a bit last year looked like this at the peak:
PSA 10 $400
BGS 10 $1k
BGS 10 Black $18k
Kevin
Kevin
Even better!
You could take the same BGS 10 and send it to PSA instead and it's a PSA 10.
Congrats to the sellers!
The Black Label holder is deemed almost accidental here..... Quad 10's has also devalued their 9.5 grades to a large degree. Id rather have a PSA 10 than a 9.5 BGS .... Beckett is offering the card owner the moon with the prospect of a Black Label and then yanking the carpet out from under them with the mildest under grade.....PSA is the way to go. I've never used any other grader than PSA and I have never bought a card in another holder....Im 47 years of age and been collecting for 40 years.
BGS was started in 1999 and BVG around 2001. PSA started around 1991/2 - I remember meeting Baker at the 1992 National where they had their 1st card on display - the PSA 8 Honus Wagner.
In all seriousness. Are the graders required to take periodic eye exams? For near/far sightedness and color recognition?
I absolutely trust Beckett. I'm slightly leery of their early vintage grading but other than that I have no problems with them. I look over the cards in their slabs the same amount that I look over the cards in any other slab. The entire concept of TPG blind loyalty kind of reminds me West Side Story.
Arthur
Talking to the PSA guys at shows, these people all know each other. Many have gone from BGS to PSA and vice versa. Yes, I am a PSA guy but have a few BGS cards.
A lot of collectors have an OCD streak and want all cards in their collection to be visually similar. I think that plays a role too.
Oh I have no problem with anyone having a preference. I'm a founding member of the Collect However You Want To Collect Secret Brotherhood of Creepy Mask-Wearing Candlelit Get-togethers. I was just talking about the people that literally get into message board fights about which TPG is better/worse and stuff like that.
Arthur
Anybody ever had a problem with crossing over cards? Ive heard horror stories that b/c PSA graded material typically sells for more money, particularly vintage material, many of my friends will buy a SGC graded mint 96 and will get let down "at the alter" when the card is not deemed worthy of the same grade...... Ive heard as often as 50% of the time...is that accurate?
I always crack. I'm a cracker. Some people prefer the powder but I'm 100% crack. And not just talking about my cheapos, either. I like to live on the edge.... on the edge of crack.
@ReggieCleveland ~awesome!! Love to pick your brain!
@ReggieCleveland ~MAybe I should start becoming a little more proactive myself.....it certainly is a thrill ! How often are you surprised to the upside similar to above? About what % of time?
It's not often. To be honest, there's probably no difference in price between a 2 and a 3 of that card. There aren't enough of them where they get traded enough for condition to matter. When I saw it came back as a 3 it was just a case of "Oh, cool." and that was it. It didn't make me a single dollar.
But I'm not a flipper and not looking to sell my stuff. For the most part I like my cards in the lighthouse slab so if I pick something up in an SGC slab and I think it will cross I'll crack it out. The way I look at it, I want it in a PSA slab anyway so there's no point in beating around the bush. Simple human psychology says your odds of crossing or improving are increased by cracking out.
Arthur
It happens all of the time. Early on trying to build my collection I would buy BGS cards and try and cross them over and had little success. Your best bet is to crack them out but you better really study the card and feel confident in the grade you have paid for. I recently had a BGS 9.5 I cracked and it came back a 10. It also really depends on what set the card comes from. MY favorite set of cards the Wrestling All Stars is one where PSA is dramatically more tough on their grading than BGS and SGC and the price differential is quite large and this is the primary reason.
I absolutely believe a guy with 100 PSA graded cards and a BGS guy with 100 graded cards, if left in a room, would fight to the death! xD
In all seriousness, I think everyone has a preference. I find that I collect some PC cards in BGS, but usually just buy them. I rarely grade with them for sale or my pc, so PSA is about 90% of my collection. I think PSA was truly genius with the set registry. It could improve just like anything else, but they pretty much run the market because of it. Beckett had the ENTIRE market early early on and lost it. Even though we all despise Beckett value today, the majority of us had not 1 or 2, but 100s of magazines years ago and banked on those ^^^ symbols for trading values.
It was fun, but now I enjoy collecting a lot more because the market value of a card when graded has become so much clearer defined. I remember how many NM cards were likely to be VG - EX-MT! Dealers were using the same grading scale and sale prices almost NEVER. Now, I feel like price and grade is a much tighter window. Obviously we all have cards that fit outside of that window and even some that are way off, but I do consider it to be within the bell curve. Seems like a pretty strong market to me no matter what Crisscriss says.
No idea, but I would guess the graders get graded periodically to ensure consistent standards.