What does the term "altered surfaces" mean?
Coinstartled
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Gave it some thought as cleaned, whizzed and questionable toning are covered by other notations.
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The surface is not original as struck.
Oops, let me expand on that as I just read the body of your question. A/S can mean almost anything that is done to a coin after it was struck. Very often, it is done for a fraudulent purpose. "Technically", that includes everything from applying a foreign substance, artificial toning, sharpening the design details, cleaning all the way up to whizzing and etching the coin in acid.
Seeking to better educate collectors, the TPGS try to be more specific by adding the method used to alter the surface. This works very well EXCEPT in the case of cleaning. Unfortunately, in many cases a coin that is buffed or polished will still be labeled as "cleaned." This policy" educates" no one.
Try this site.
http://numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=16325
Due to limited label character space it's sometimes used on a details graded coin which has more than just one problem.
Surface condition is not market acceptable. TPGs define what the market acceptable is.
Thanks grip! That's a great resource. I typed in "Altered Surfaces" in the Numismaster search and more good stuff came up. My printer will be busy today!
Changed. You know ? Altered. Not done during manufacture, rather post minting. Chemicals, temperature, or tooling .... So many ways to alter a coin. Yet, there's only one way to leave it alone.
Usually it means that the metal on the surface of the coin has been moved. This includes whizzed, polished and brushed
What happened with this one? Artificial frost?
@U1chicago said: "What happened with this one? Artificial frost?"
Probably. The marks on the cheek should be shiny on an untoned coin yet they have the same "frost" as the rest of the coin.
@BillJones said: "Usually it means that the metal on the surface of the coin has been moved. This includes whizzed, polished and brushed."
Bill, please read my post so that when you give talks to collectors in the future...
PS See the example (1884) above. Metal has not been moved. "Usually" is conjecture. What I have learned/observed is the word "often" conveys a much better understanding. Nevertheless, I removed my "disagree" as your opinion is helpful.
If a coin is altered, it can have an altered design (added, removed mint mark, altered date) or altered surfaces (what we're talking about here). Altered surfaces encompass cleaning, whizzing, tooling, lasering, frosting, chemical enhancements, and other stuff deliberately done to change the surfaces. As a "details" designation, it is something that doesn't fit neatly into one of the other subcategories of altered surfaces. This would typically be artificial frost, attempted repair of scratches, fake mirrored surface, etc.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
@U1chicago
I use to own that coin.
I bought this coin off Ebay back 2004 in a NTC 67 DMPL holder with hopes it would grade out at 65 PL at PCGS.
Back in 2004 , I was just getting back into collecting and had purchased a few coins in non NGC/PCGS holders.
Some later were submitted to PCGS and graded out, this one turned into a few hundred dollar tuition lesson
I submitted it back in 2007 and also earlier this year.
Both times it came back as altered surfaces.
The frost looked OK, but the fields looked a little abnormal. Very reflective, but the luster was a little off.
Probably some kind of whizzing.
I listed it at GC and it sold for $225 hammer price.
I would not be surprised if it gets 'tweaked' some more and ends up in a 66 or 67 holder at some point.
Thanks for the info! I was surprised at the final price of that coin as it sold for around 65 prices. I’m sure someone saw it as having potential for a straight grade and like you said, it might end up in a straight graded holder soon.
I think the flow of the hair below the ear looks suspicious .I have seen artificial
frost applied and in most cases it runs into the field. Not seeing that.
Altered Surfaces means "changed outsides" and usually implies evidence of intentional rather than accidental effects.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
You can write a novel about most topics in coins, but briefly described altered surfaces is a coin with makeup on, or some metal moved.
While I agree with the information above, it would be helpful if the 'altered' feature were described for educational purposes... here we have a prime example and end up guessing at the root defect. Yes, likely added frost... however, the pictures do not conclusively show that. I know there is limited label space, but it would be very helpful if the TPG'S would enclose a note with details. Cheers, RickO
Agree RickO. Same with "Repaired", which tells us nothing about what was done, or the extent of the work.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@ricko, This is from PCGS on this subject
https://www.pcgs.com/grades/#modal
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I'm just curious how lasered coins, or coins that have been subject to high tech surface chemical reaction, ie gold affected by cyanide, etc. would be classified?
One example, ICG gave me their analysis on this coin:
They said it was "altered surfaces" that NGC called "cleaned".
@1630Boston printed the PCGS description of altered surfaces. That means ANY FORM OF MECHANICAL ALTERATION (movement of medal or chemical etching) either falls under a degree of cleaning or if they use the designations of polished, buffed and whizzed.
PS @logger7, you can call the "old" grading service and speak directly with a grader. I've been told that in many cases the graders at some major services leave notes on their computers about the coins. This is no secret, so I wish any active or former TPGS graders could state the grading service and if that is/was the case. I know one of these folks who worked at ANACS posts here but I think that may have been before the computer age.
I have never heard of PCGS or NGC graders commenting on details on the grading of specific coins; plus their workers sign confidentiality contracts.
Yeah, you may be right about those two services. I know the other two are not like that. Anyway, there are videos of how coins are graded. Additionally, professional graders teach seminars. IMO, one of them could answer the question about leaving comments about coins on their grading screen for the finalizer to see without breaking any rules.
Furthermore, if I owned on of the top two TPGS I would NEVER let my graders speak to the clients. They would never get any coins graded if they took time to educate folks. That is the ANA's job!
"Altered Surfaces" means sell raw.
I just went through some micrographs of my coins (no full images as they are in a bank) and this may either help or cause more confusion about altered surfaces as described above in 1630Boston's post. Neither of these coins is original; however, the top coin is straight graded as "market acceptable" and the other has "altered surfaces."
Anyone wish to comment on the characteristics of an A/S that can be easily seen if you know what to look for?
Yeah, have been suckered with pretentious positives on the 2x2; PQ +++ very high end, etc. when the coin is really a cull problem.
Looks like a satellite image of a river canyon in Tibet at sunset. What exactly are we looking at here?
LOL. You are a very respected, five-star, numismatist around here so I'm going to guess your post is a joke. So far you got two LOL's. You do have a point so for everyone else my images are the nose area of two different Morgan dollars. On the top coin a haze similar to thumbing is on the surface. It can be removed with chemicals. Note how the LACK OF HAZE at the intersection of the field and relief creates an unnatural "halo."
The A/S coin has several bag marks hazed over. The haze dulls the surface. A natural, untoned coin should have a contrast between the marks and the surface.