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Minnesota bullion law burned me again.
AstroJoe
Posts: 304 ✭✭✭
I was trying to purchase a coin from Heritage Auction from their post auction buys. Everything was going smoothly until I tried to place the order. I get a message from them on the screen, that they can't sell "bullion coins to Minnesota residents". But they did say it won't stop me from winning it in an auction.
Sounds somewhat fair, but didn't know there was a distinction between buying a coin or winning the same coin in a auction with them.
I will need to look more closely an their auctions.
Thank you State of Minnesota to protect me from my love of coin collecting
Joe
Everything is all right!
Everything is all right!
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You can always win it send it to me. Maybe I send it to you!
thank those guys from the great govmint.com, who wanted to restrict their competition
Move to Arizona. You can buy anything here....and it is 78 and sunny!
The try hards in govt and Corp make life hard.
sure and 115 and sunny in the summer
When we sell coins at melt....we aren't kidding.
Maybe have it shipped to an out of state friend that you trust.
Have it sent to a good friend in a different state.
He can then send it to you in a flat rate box and you get it in about 3 days
I am in a large southern state, and basically, the people tell the government what they can do, versus MN where the government tells the people what they can do.
What a very strange regulation.... I would like to hear the 'reasoning' behind such a strange imposition on citizens. Cheers, RickO
MN ....Nanny liberal state doesn't trust it's own citizens to use their own judgement
If you live in MN, YOU all elected the idiots that came up with that stupid law.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
MN largely being settled by Scandanavians, a group of people with a seeming predilection towards both Socialism and Melancholy.
FWIW, I am one-quarter Swede.
I'm 100% Swede and grew up in Minnesota - great place to live if you don't know any better.......
This.
Until the bidding is over, you have no idea who will when. Oooops, this is a MN guy can't ship to him! They don't say, anywhere that I can find, that MN residents can't bid. But, MN law says they can't ship to you so just send to anyone else in any state but MN and let them send to you.
Sucks,
bob
PS: how to you change that law??? Vote the bastrds out and gut the damn thing and you'll be back in business.
Complain to Senator Franken
How does that play out with federal anti discrimination laws?
Sounds like the law might be an overreaction that was not well thought out. It looks like, from these articles dealers need to register with the state and few have:
https://cointalk.com/threads/minnesota-law-restricts-gold-and-silver-sales.249072/
And this:
numismaticnews.net/article/news/general/dealers-to-reject-minnesota-clients
K
The major auction companies HA, SB, GC, Legend, Goldberg will all allow MN residents to bid in their auctions and ship to them. Not sure about direct bullion sales to MN residents.
We have snowbirds here who winter in the southern states, not sure what you will call it when residents in the south are looking to escape their summer heat and spend their summers in northern states.
Hey it's 45 and sunny today and some of the golf courses are still open. Once global warming kicks in MN may start to look more attractive.
I'm sure when this law came about Minnesota coin clubs showed opposition. Is there any current activity towards a repeal?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
One of the worst things the Supreme Court has done over the years has been to expand the reach of the Commerce Clause beyond the Contitution's original intent, justifying countless Federal intrusions into issues that were meant to be governed exclusively by the States. Yet an issue like Minnesota's coin like bullion law - a textbook "interstate commerce" situation, and a great opportunity to remind the world why the Commerce Clause actually exists - has not been addressed through Constitutionally authorized Federal regulation.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If you could send over a bimbo who can keep her mouth shut, you might get somewhere with him.
Only if was a BUST coin
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Did you ask heritage to clarify why they could not sell the coin to you?
I hear he gropes bullion
this
Sure, having a different billing address than the shipping address won't raise any red flags.
I think he already has his hands full....
He's a bit preoccupied lately.
Everything is all right!
It was because of the bullion law, but they said they could if I win an auction.
That confused me more. How to differentiate between buying a coin and winning a coin through an auction?
Anyone?
Everything is all right!
You may have to read the law. It might well refer specifically to sales and exclude auctions. That wouldn't be that unusual given that there are usually different laws applying to auctions relative to retail sales. For example, some jurisdictions require auctioneers to be bonded but may not have similar requirements for retail establishments.
Here ya go...there's an auction exemption as long as the auctioneer is just the agent of sale an not the owner of the items being auctioned:
https://mn.gov/commerce/licensees/bullion-product/
I will have to read law closer. What you said makes sense.
What if HA change the "buy" to the person who enters what the next bid is, and that closes the auction!
Everything is all right!
That makes my eyes cross.
Bullion is now the enemy of the people.
Well, sort of. NY State made a lot of changes in response to 9/11 as bullion was an easy way to launder money to fund terrorism. So, if you buy that argument, bullion funds the enemy of the people.
Thanks for the link. They make it sound easy to do. But in reality, very complicated.
Everything is all right!
If you actually make it through the winter you still have to survive mosquito season where they are the size of Eisenhower dollars. Them are some hardy people
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Just one of a few draconian gestapo states.
Similar situation buying ancient coins from European auctions now.
Any auction house will sell you ancients and arrange for shipping but U.S. customs can require proof that the items are not "cultural property" that cannot be exported. This documentation often doesn't exist. Few shipments from Europe are questioned but it has happened.
Sounds like a bunch of ignoramuses/ignorami, aka legislators, were befuddled and bamboozled by a slick business entity.
[sarcasm] Nice way to end up with a law that would be custom tailored to a business model only a few would be able to support [/sarcasm]. What a way to drive the small businesses out and restrict competition, not to mention make it harder for a collector.
IIRC the rules were loosened ever somewhat, but remain an impediment to any but the largest companies. I wonder if the US Mint ever jumped through their hoops though? Would be kind of funny if they hadn't...
If I remember correctly, the Minneapolis-St. Paul area was once the 'boiler room' central in bilking hundreds of thousands of dollars out of senior citizens with their tactics. Something needed to be done to protect people from themselves, so greed does not take over numismatics rendering it a bad name.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Some of the worst laws were passed with best intentions
State of residence is not a protected class.
And personally I'm not sure of the prudence of using heavy handed government regulation to force a private entity to engage in commerce. Though the government does do this all the time.
just a matter of time before law is challenged by an out-of-stater and changed. Minnesota has no legal jurisdiction on a seller who is out of state. The only legal way for Minnesota to have any involvement with an out of state purchase is to place a tax (on the in state buyer) of bullion items shipped into the state - something already applicable in their state sales tax law.
Be interesting to see if another state would honor/extradite an out of stater for violating this stretch of the law.
This law could mark the beginning for all on-line sales of all merchandise in any state being subject to the buyer's state law. Good way to shut down internet sales. Note that up to this point the only involvement by states on out of state internet purchases is to hold the in state buyer responsible for declaring the purchase and his state's sales tax on the purchase.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
I am informed the law was modified not too long ago to allow the occasional sale to MN (up to a certain $$$ limit per year). This modification allowed my son Justin (monstercoinmart on eBay) to resume selling to MN residents. I assume Heritage would simply exceed the limit so quickly in the year they just banned all bullion sales as an easy solution. Just my two cents. Wondercoin.
Minnesota bullion law amended
among other things, increased "the threshold for registration from $5,000 a year to $25,000 and limit the transactions that count against the threshold to transactions with Minnesota consumers, thus reducing the number of small dealers who are subject to the law’s requirements."
If you are not a member of the Industry Council for Tangible Assets (ICTA), this is one of the reason's why you should support them.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Part (of the many) issues of the law is this : "Bullion product. "Bullion product" means any coin, round, bar, or ingot containing silver, gold, platinum, palladium, or other precious metal.".
So that means your bust halves, your ancients, your ANY numismatic coin falls under this law.
ICTA did some work ictaonline.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=170:minnesota-law-targeting-coin-dealers-gets-amended&catid=26:news&Itemid=128
but think about it...at one point you had to use a Minnesota approved entity to do your background checks. Had to register 2 years after not doing business (I wonder if death was an acceptable exception????). Auctions and auction venues were cleared as 'entities' needing to register. Wonder if eBay had a few words with them too.
This is not necessarily true. The state defines how the locus of the transaction is determined. For example, in NYS any long-distance transaction is deemed to take place in the locus of the buyer not the seller. So even charging in-state sales tax can be a nuisance when the rates differ by county. If Minnesota defines transaction locus in the same manner, then the sale actually takes place in Minnesota not at Heritage.
The whole situation is somewhat trickier than people want to make it. If I buy an item from a company headquartered in Arizona but whose inventory is housed in Texas who uses servers in Florida and pay using a bank card from Delaware and request shipment to New York - where did the actual sale take place?
I think the bigger question is what happens if Mn. tries to go after a dealer who sells a coin to someone in Mn? I say kiss my arse Mn. and if someone buys a coin from me on ebay I am going to sell it to them!