Help with identifying and value of this 1787 coin
Endeavor1967
Posts: 160 ✭✭✭
Hello
This is one of the many coins I will need some help with identifying and selling.
Thank you!
2
Comments
Looks like a damaged Fugio Cent.
It's a beat up Fugio Cent (considered an early U.S. coin), but don't despair, it is pricey in higher grades and somebody will want this one.
Gentleman what is a fair price?
I would also like to mention that all of the coins I will be posting from this hoard are fresh and original with no attempts made to improve on them in any way shape or form.
Cannot tell from that picture if the piece is genuine or not.
IMO, the coin is 100% genuine. I'd love to own it. It will clean up to a very nice chocolate brown Fine + in the right hands! It has to be completely stripped and then restored to brown. I have heard that some folks do things like that and no one can tell. I'll bet it is not done overnight but I'd need to see it done to believe it. Then it would sell for a few hundred dollars. Check out Ebay for pricing.
Problem is, as it sits it is "worth less." Put it up for bids here.
I will guarantee that is is 100% genuine. It was found among a hoard of over 100 coins with similar dates.
When I sell it I will offer a full refund if found to be anything but genuine.
There are 61 varieties of 1787 Fugio cents. A clear photo of the obverse might help determine if it is a rare one. They are always popular because of their connection to Ben Franklin and the first US coin.
My guess is $200-$400 in that condition.
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
I posted this about the OP's coin:
"IMO, the coin is 100% genuine. I'd love to own it. It will clean up to a very nice chocolate brown Fine + in the right hands! It has to be completely stripped and then restored to brown. I have heard that some folks do things like that and no one can tell. I'll bet it is not done overnight but I'd need to see it done to believe it. Then it would sell for a few hundred dollars. Check out Ebay for pricing.
Problem is, as it sits it is "worth less." Put it up for bids here."
@MsMorrisine Please take the time and have the courtesy to let me know what you disagree with in my post. Thanks in advance.
I agree need better pic and make sure you post it on the BST board or you will get a bunch of you know just a heads up. Keep posting so we can see what you have to offer on the BST, Have fun.
Hoard the keys.
The phrase "stripped and restored" frightened me as well.
These words may exist in some copper collectors' vocabularies, but not mine. "Blue Ribbon" is about as far as I go with copper (yes, I still have some). Furthermore, we need better photos to know the current condition and future potential of this coin.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
First - thank you for your comments!
Secondly - I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about concerning point #1 and #2 but I cannot give you a disagree (RATS!
) as your point #3 is 100% valid.
@MsMorrisine said:
IMO, the images are good enough that any TPGS authenticator would have no trouble at all declaring the coin 100% genuine. There are enough clues in the image to make that assessment. Unfortunately, some of the members here may not be very skillful at coin authentication.
This tells me that you know absolutely nothing about working with copper. This coin is far beyond professional conservation. That is not an opinion - it is a fact. Professional conservation does not include ANY of the things (stripping the surface) necessary to make it beautiful again! It needs to be stripped to "clean and pink" and then naturally recolored. IMO, this coin could be ready for market at $$$ in less than a month.
LOL, as with any coin. So, is it worth more as is or chocolate brown and attractive?
PS I'll guarantee there are members on CU who know exactly what I'm talking about.
PPS I wish it were mine.
My personal thoughts and humble opinion regarding #2:
Coin “doctoring” involves the alteration of the appearance of a coin to attempt to increase its value, and may involve, among other things, adding substances to coins (such as, among other things, putty, wax, facial oils, petroleum jelly or varnish); treating coins with chemicals (such as, among other things, potash, sulfur, cyanide, iodine or bleach); heat treating coins in any way to alter their appearance; re-matting (“skinning”) proof gold; “tapping” and “spooning” ( i.e., physically moving surface metal to hide marks); filing rim nicks; or repairing coins (re-tooling metal).
https://pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Reinforces-Rules-For-Suspected-Doctored-Coins
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
I too feel it is genuine, but you're frightening the small children and scaring the horses with the rest of that suggestion.
As Mr. Fischer used to say "If you can't leave it alone, don't buy it!"
As for price, past the $50 to $100 range, a person probably has to pass (assuming the variety is common). But there will be a buyer for this, lots of collectors can't afford this type coin in better condition.
News Flash: WE ALL HATE "Coin Doctors" who "fix" coins. One has been openly advertising for decades. Nevertheless, I'm a realist. Coins are being "fixed" (this is not conservation) around the world on a daily basis. Folks are knowingly or unknowingly buying, selling, and possibly even slabbing "market acceptable" doctored or repaired coins for decades.
That's one of the prime reasons - besides counterfeiting - that the ANA set up a trust and then a Certification Service a long time ago. "Doctored" coins are bad and cost uninformed folks to lose money.
Unfortunately, what anyone thinks/writes here means NOTHING! Like it or not, "fixing" coins goes on and it will continue. Methods are getting better and detection is getting harder. Ever hear of a laser? They were not used to "fix" coins in the 20th Century.
So, open your mind and don't shoot the messenger. The OP's coin can be FIXED to a market acceptable condition. Then, if no one can detect that it is not just a worn colonial, it will be a pleasure to own. I want it as is.
Huh...?
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
They are called setraline and/or alprazolam, and somebody ain't taking their prescribed dosages.
@EXOJUNKIE said: "My personal thoughts and humble opinion regarding #2:
Coin “doctoring” involves the alteration of the appearance of a coin to attempt to increase its value...
Do you all see how complicate this gets? This member has just given us a perfect definition of COIN CONSERVATION!!!
The dividing line must be "intent" and that's an entirely different discussion. ROTFL
@Endeavor1967, I'm sorry your thread got hijacked to discuss the nuances of coin "doctoring" versus coin "conservation."
Keep posting your coins. We enjoy seeing them and you will get some good advice regarding attribution and selling them.
We're all fortunate to have the coins we have. Most collectors probably don't own a Fugio, so enjoy yours. Best advice is to treat your coins with respect and they will bring you a lot of enjoyment and, if you're lucky someday, maybe even a profit.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
Yes, by all means, show us some more coins. No such thing as too many. Thanks for the post.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The OP also posted some over on the World Forum and you should see his photos and comments there, if you have not already done so.
@BillDugan1959 said: "They are called setraline and/or alprazolam, and somebody ain't taking their prescribed dosages."
I've also read a lot of comments on CU about drinking. I've been told that alcohol destroys brain cells.
@Endeavor1967
Oh yeah, that new photo shows off your coin a whole lot better!
Much better piece than I thought based on the original photos. Much much better. It will bring much more than $100.
@Endeavor1967
I knew I liked your coin.
It looks like you changed the original image in your post! See the "pink" color? The coin has already been chemically altered (stripped) in the past and has started to tone back. Probably Fine to VF now after it get's a brown surface. Then possibly a $500 to $700 coin but let the coin dealers here value it.
I'm going to guess it is Newman 9-P (the die combination).
I noticed you posted new photos after you "wiped" the coin.
You should avoid cleaning the coin in this way - it adds small scratches to the surfaces.
There are specific solvents which can be used that remove the surface contaminants without doing this type of damage.
It looks like the variety is Kessler 9-P (same as Newman 9-P). However, avoiding further damage is much more important to the value than the variety.
I honestly don’t think I did the Coin any harm. Originally Inwas being told this Coin could bring $100. After a light touch with water the Coin has revealed its true beauty.
I will admit I am totally ignorant when it comes to Coins. I do need to defend myself in this instance though.
I really appreciate all the help I am getting here.
You hurt the value a bit by cleaning it, but you will still find an eager buyer.
Hope you are ready for some "tough
from a curmudgeon ... DON'T TOUCH YOUR COINS anymore.
@Endeavor1967 said: "I honestly don’t think I did the Coin any harm."
Possibly not, you could have done much worse!
"Originally I was being told this Coin could bring $100. After a light touch with water the Coin has revealed its true beauty."
Your coin was Butt Ugly and it still is! The value of a coin does not enter into the equation. Let's ass ume it was only worth $100. You might have knocked the price down to $50 with improper cleaning.
"I will admit I am totally ignorant when it comes to Coins."
That's why you should not touch your coins. You may destroy something valuable! I'm going to blame myself for what you have done. Coin "doctors" are extremely knowledgeable when it comes to coins. Since you are not, no more experiments please...for the sake of your coins.
"I really appreciate all the help I am getting here."
Show us some more.
From the new pictures, taken after the coin was cleaned, I would now agree that it is genuine, cleaned.
Every person who does not know about coins who then proceeds to clean their coins doesn't think they are doing them any harm. Guess what - they almost always are...
If you did any damage or how much damage you did remains to be seen, but with all due respect, what you as a non-collector or new collector think about cleaning is irrelevant - please listen to the experienced collectors. They are trying to help you preserve the value and integrity of your coins.
Your coin looks cleaned to me, and I am not even an expert, Whether that is an old cleaning that you uncovered or the result of what you did, we may never know, but it has likely reduced the value to some degree.
This is a nice coin overall as are some of the others I have seen posted. Rule #1 is do no harm. If professional "conservation" can help, that can come later,
Not a fan of FU> @Insider2 said:
Sadly your post might very well be the reason the owner brightened it up earlier today by rubbing it with a wet paper towel.
Shame as It was problematic before but a 6-12 month mineral oil soak would have aided it.
And cleaned is not good in this case.
That milk chocolate brown is normal and didn't need to be "cleaned"
There ain't no "milk chocolate" color on that coin as it was all stripped away even before the OP cleaned it. That's what the off-pink color at the center of the coin was in the original image that the OP removed.
You are seeing some dark oxidation returning to the coin and it is not even close to the color of chocolate (milk that is
) brown. That coin needs to visit a "doctor" and you guys would drool at the results.
Although I already took some responsibility...Apparently some here cannot interpret what they read!
I originally wrote: "It will clean up to a very nice chocolate brown Fine + in the right hands! " The hands of someone
I may know and NOT someone who knows nothing about coins.
Sometimes, It is so hard for an old curmudgeon
to be nice 
around here. 
Anyone save the pictures from before he cleaned it?
They are still on the world coin forum.
Wow this place is very weird. I really wish I could post some more of the coins have here because I am sure there are many good guys lurking here who enjoy this hobby. I can also see why probably many others simply choose to just move on. At this point I think it will take a whole lot less energy for me to just bring all these coins to a few local dealers and work it out with them.
I have had at least a dozen pm’s that just turned me off completely. How can anyone feel comfortable here. Sorry to those who would have enjoyed seeing more of this hoard but I just can’t deal with being maligned when I have been very honest and upfront. So much for expanding your hobby.
Well, it's a good bet that all those PM's you got would be a lot more interesting to read!
Then don't ask questions if you don't want honest answers.
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I'd love to know how it works out with the local dealers but I doubt we'll ever find out. I'll bet their first question will be "who cleaned the Fugio cent?"
That's a Newman 9-P variety, worth about $400-600 in that state of preservation.
Coin Rarities Online
@Endeavor1967.... Welcome aboard....Please do not get discouraged..... Yes, there are some comments that may seem a bit harsh... do not take them personally... there is a lot of knowledge here - more coin knowledge than anywhere else on the net.... and also, with that, comes character - of all sorts. Hang in there... Cheers, RickO
I don't see how copper could turn that color with a simple wet paper towel wipe.
Paper towels are pretty abrasive if your scrubbing.
is there something different between that copper coin and a modern cent?
modern cents brown up and don't wear back to red in a pocket so easily. even the near 100% plating on a zincoln doesn't.
@MsMorrisine asked: "I don't see how copper could turn that color with a simple wet paper towel wipe." and "Is there something different between that copper coin and a modern cent? Modern cents brown up and don't wear back to red in a pocket so easily. even the near 100% plating on a zincoln doesn't."
Actually, you answered your own question. When a modern cent turns it is natural. It will not rub off and can only be removed with abrasive damage or chemicals. The OP's coin was cleaned chemically in the past (pink surface poking through the darker color). The dark color was not as "set" into the surface on all parts of the coin. In places where it was not "set" into the surface or where the rag (?) did not touch, it wiped off easily.
Just about any experienced person who collects copper could finish stripping the coin completely and let it go back to brown.
Many of these guys are members of EAC and I would not call any of them "Coin Doctors" so all you snowflakes need to get real. DON'T TOUCH YOUR COINS - let others fix them. 
Boy, for someone who knows nothing about the hobby, then wants to have coins identified, then to have help in selling them, then gets upset when he asks questions and doesn't like the answers.....well....... Just another newb who wants to have all the work done for him without doing anything other than logging on to a website, and being able to sell them here with no fees. The OP gets the chance to have exactly what he wants to have done, then throws a hissy?
I'd be concerned for those who have already purchased something from him, given his restrictions on payment form (PP gift only, or a Postal MO preferred....yeah, he SAID he'd take a personal check, but....), and his wanting to cut out now that he hears something he doesn't like. But, once he said "I honestly don’t think I did the Coin any harm." after a 'light touch with water' (the difference in images shows that coin was ANYTHING BUT cleaned with a 'light touch with water').
What gives around here, lately? The newbs want everything done for them, yet they seem to know an awful lot about the hobby (just ask them). When they hear a truthful answer to their questions, if it's NOT what they want to hear, they take their ball and bat and go home!
If I bought this I would be loaning it out to grade schools raw and let ever kid touch a coin from 1787.
I'd want to get as much oil, snot, & ear wax on this to speed up the re-skinning process
if you check bst the subject coin has been "sold"
