Coin Photography Philosophy and you....
TommyType
Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
Agree, or disagree:
“The goal of coin photography is to get the final product directly from the camera, and require as little post camera processing as possible.”
I’m not talking about resizing, and cropping, and framing the coin photograph. I mean the camera captured image shouldn’t require lightening, enhancing, color balancing, contrast adjustment, etc., etc.....
That’s kind of my “going in” theory as I attempt to progress from my current state of “almost acceptable” to “pretty good” coin photography....but I’ve not been all that successful at it.
I’ve captured a few photos I thought were pretty good. But they only got to that point AFTER I corrected the exposure in one way or another....(usually more than one way).
I guess as long as the final image properly portrays the subject coin, it shouldn’t really matter how you got there? But I feel like a failure when I get a “nope, that ain’t right” image that I have to monkey with. Maybe I'm putting too much pressure on myself....
Anyone have a replacement “philosophy” to help a dude out?! 
I.e.:
“The goal of coin photography is to not burn yourself on the lights. Everything after that is gravy.”
“The goal of coin photography is to pull something useful out of any muddy image you might produce with the camera by pure chance.”
“The goal of coin photography is to be able to process the image without use of a Cray Supercomputer.”
I’ll take anything.....
Maybe over Christmas, I can carve out the time required to try the same photograph with numerous settings to lead me to the magic formula for my camera and setup. Guess nobody promised this was going to be easy.
Comments
It is always best to get it right in the camera before post processing.
I figured someone would tell me that. Soldier on I shall...
Agree. I cannot stand when pro-photogs deliver photos that do not look like the coin... this isnt a beauty contest. Some coins just dont photograph well and it sucks but dont try to juice the photo to make the coin look better...
@Tonerguy agree nothing worse then a coin in hand that looks worse then the picture. And that would be in every case of buying a coin.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
The goal for me is to accurately portray the coin with as little effort as possible. How exactly I get there isn’t important.
I want the color and focus to reflect what I see in-hand. That's the goal... if I don't see that to my satisfaction, I'll reshoot. P{resentation stuff (cropping, rotating, framing) I consider a separate activity.
Same here. Reshoot sometimes happens many times. I do No Post Processing at all. The one thing I strive for is seeing the slab plastic color as a off white and that is because I have a White Piece of paper under the coin when it is shot.
Ken
@Fairlaneman - my post-photo processing is basically just cutting out the coin and putting it on a black background with a label... nothing fancy:
In my mind that is not post processing. To me post processing is the use of Photo Shop or some other program that changes the actual shot that was taken.
Ken
I have taken multiple thousands of coin pictures over my collecting/photography career, and with zero hesitation, I can say that the best photos representing the actual coin surfaces are those taken with a good digital SLR and macro lens, with proper lighting and the use of a copystand, followed by post-processing with a computer and software, in my case Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop.
It isn't until recently, after working with a VERY knowledgeable board member, that I finally feel comfortable with my set-up, and now take ONE picture of each side of a coin, rather than 5 or 10, and in that single picture I have captured the data for a true-to-eye representation of my coin.
Each and every coin you own will have a different surface presentation depending on the lighting with which it is viewed, by the angle it is viewed, and by your visual acuity, among the many variables used by the human eye. The camera strips away all bias, BUT it is up to the responsible photographer/numismatist to post-process to the most accurate view of the coin. I used to "shoot" my coins by the old adage of better being lucky than good, but in the case of "shooting" coins, preparation is 99% of the battle, and 1% is a good subject. Collecting "money" isn't an inexpensive hobby, and dollars spent on quality photographic equipment pays off for those wishing to add another facet to the hobby.
I would agree. And I tried to make that distinction in my original post. There is a difference between "changing the photo", and "artistically displaying the photo."
Though....I'm not sure we should assume ALWAYS bad to modify the picture IF you are modifying it to more honestly reflect the look of the actual coin. I think it's probably better that the photo be accurate....as long as the photographer/editor is being honest.
My intent, (buried in my flippant style), was just to get a feel for how close my photographs should be to "reality" before I give up and start photo-shopping. The answer, it appears, is "very very close".....
I will strive for that.
The goal should be to capture the coin as best as possible.
Modern, digital cameras also have a lot of software in camera so I think the distinction is less with digital cameras than manual cameras.
Yep, I also agree. What I do is not photo manipulation, just presentation layer stuff.
What most folks don't realize is that there is a LOT of post-processing going on in the camera. To think that what comes out of the camera is somehow un-manipulated is simply wrong.
I look for just a few things from the photo that comes out of the camera:
I look at such a photo as good "raw material" to allow a superb image to be processed that properly represents the in-hand look, good detail representation, etc.
http://macrocoins.com
“Agree, or disagree: The goal of coin photography is to get the final product directly from the camera, and require as little post camera processing as possible.”
Disagree completely. The important thing is the final product, not what comes directly from the camera with no manipulation.
In fact, if you shoot in the most advantageous format ("raw", which delivers a data file with no camera processing) it is imperative you make adjustments.
I agree with rmpsrpms. Get the fundamentals correct when composing the image. Then post-process to yield an image that represents the coin's true look.
Lance.
I shoot in raw mode and keep the fundamentals in order. Other than the obvious (focus, composition, etc.), it's critical to understand how to light the subject. If done properly the camera will collect the data, and a little nudging will reveal the truth. There is no magic, but understanding lighting IS the fundamental requirement.
Experiment a lot with lighting and post processing to understand the results. With time you will understand what each coin needs, and it will become natural. Best of luck!
The less photoshop time the better. A big goal of mine is that my dealer customers never get returns on a coin based on the images.
The goal is to get the best looking realistic photo you can in the shortest total time (in camera and post-camera), so that you can move on to the next coin. The notion that post-processing outside the camera is "bad" is silly. Tools such as Camera Raw and Photoshop are merely additional steps in the processing pipeline that includes all the stuff done in the camera, which includes one or more of the following: color channel interpolation, denoising, pixel defect correction, adaptive gain adjustment, edge enhancement, color space conversion, saturation adjustments, and other stuff I'm not thinking about. What's important is that in the final product, you can't tell what may or may not have been done to a picture in post-processing.
Ansel Adams produced some of the greatest black and white landscape photos known. Much of this was a result of the endless hours he'd spend in the darkroom tweaking his photos until they were perfect, and this was after spending time with his camera equipment getting them to be as perfect as the camera, lens, and film allowed.
For coins, the picture coming out of the camera should have no clipped shadows or highlights (not always easy in itself), be in focus, and be lit the way you want. These are things that post-processing can't help.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Very interesting question. The goal in a perfect world where the perfect camera, perfect lens, perfect lighting and perfect coin existed would be to produce the final image straight from the camera. However, none of those scenarios exist. So a competent and honest professional photographer will strive for an image that is as close to the original coin as they can get, then implement post production to bring that image to a point that best represents the coin in hand. There are numerous tools available to a photographer to achieve their desired goal. That's the reason Photoshop was created.
Think about it this way. When you buy a new coin, let's say a beautifully toned Mint State Morgan Dollar. What's the first thing you might do when you get it home? Maybe sit down at a desk and study it with a low power loupe under a decent, bright desk lamp with subdued ambient light? You tilt the coin and rotate it around looking at the luster, watching that cartwheel dance around the surface of the coin. You tilt the coin and let the surfaces reflect the light to your eye's so the colors pop. Everything you do show's off the true character of the coin. All those subtleties are not achievable if you just set the coin flat on the desk and look straight down at it. I don't know of any collector who does that. They all hold the coin in their hand and move it around to examine it.
The job of a coin photographer is to help relay those subtleties using a single static image. Someone who has mastered the skills to needed to convey the subtle characteristics of a coin accurately using a static image makes a choice. They can either reveal and glorify the truth of a coin, or they can hide and deceive and misrepresent a coin. A true professional will reveal the true look of a coin and not intentionally hide it's defects. But, they will make sure it's best qualities are showcased. Someone with these abilities knows how to hide defect's such as hit's, evidence of cleanings as well as over saturate a coin or light it just right to make the luster seem better than it truly is or crank up the contrast to make fields look more PL/DMPL than they truly are. It comes down to this, with great power comes great responsibility (sorry for the Spider-Man cliche). You can easily find the coin photography villains on eBay, some stick out like a sore thumb, others don't, until you get the coin in hand. After that, you know to avoid those photographers and their coins. A true professional know's that their reputation to convey the truth of a coin is paramount. Their success rests entirely on the reputation they work hard to build.
Personally, I shoot every coin in the RAW format. I then have the ability to adjust exposure, color balance, tint and contrast to a very accurate degree in order to start with an image as close to the coins in hand look as I can. From there, it's very small adjustments in Photoshop to arrive at the final image. I strive to get the coin on screen to look as close to the actual coin in my hand. Most coins only need a very slight levels adjustment to bring the contrast of the on screen image closer to reality. Other's need a few other adjustments. Then the image is cropped and a composite is created with the obverse and reverse. I don't go into a shoot with a goal of doing as little as possible in post production. I make sure the lighting is the best it can be, without hiding obvious flaws or accentuating small flaws that then appear worse than they really are. I make sure that the most eye appealing aspects of the coin are being accurately depicted. I make sure the focus is properly set to achieve as sharp of an image as possible. This then allows micro analysis of the coin after capture. Nearly every flaw should be revealed when the full resolution image is magnified on the screen, in the same way a high magnification loupe will real those flaws. Once the capture is as good as I can get it, the second part of the process has to happen, Post Production. I see both of these as being equal parts in the creation of an accurate image.
Wow JTLee very nice read thank you
Not if you buy a coin from me!
Edit to add...the only thing I do to my pictures is crop them. I have spent years learning the proper lighting and back ground to give what I feel is a true in hand look of a coin! I wish True views and the major auction houses would steer their photography that way!
Well, this got much more interesting than even I expected when I asked it! I was looking for either, 1) Permission to tweak a photo, and not obsess about a perfect camera image, or 2) Encouragement to persevere to strive for the perfect camera settings, lighting, exposure, etc.
Turns out, I guess the end result is the goal: A pleasing image that matches the coin as best as you can. How you get there, apparently, isn't all that important!
Thanks for the thoughts and opinions.
Well, this got much more interesting than even I expected when I asked it! I was looking for either, 1) Permission to tweak a photo, and not obsess about a perfect camera image, or 2) Encouragement to persevere to strive for the perfect camera settings, lighting, exposure, etc.
Turns out, I guess, that the end result is the only goal I need to watch out for: A pleasing image that matches the coin as best as I can. How I get there, apparently, isn't all that important!
Thanks for the thoughts and opinions.
Folks like to say they are striving for the "in-hand look" in their photographs, but this is not completely true. No one would be happy with a photograph that exactly reproduced the way a coin looks in-hand. When a coin is held and viewed, it is rotated various ways, held at various angles to the light to see reflections and surface finish and scratches and luster, etc. To complicate things further, you usually view a coin with both eyes, unless a loupe is used. Su ultimately, one single image cannot completely and faithfully show all these views and angles and such. Coin photographers must resort to using lighting tricks such as multiple lights, diffusion, reflectors, mirrors, etc to light the coin in such a way as to bring to the image all these qualities evenly and simultaneously. But this is indeed not the in-hand look, only a composite of a range of views that together give an averaged overall impression of the coin.
If you don't believe the above, simply look at a coin in-hand, and at any point think about the level of criticism a photograph that looked like that would engender. Be sure to close one eye when you do this. Now, if you are lucky, and find that perfect angle and view, make note of it, and see if you can reproduce that view with your camera setup. The photo that comes from that setup (with appropriate camera settings to meet my criteria above) is exactly the "raw material" you should be striving for.
http://macrocoins.com
For me personally, the first goal would be taking the picture... the second would be to get it into the computer....from there I think I could copy and paste to the forum....
OK, seriously... great information in this thread... and I agree... the major goal is to have the picture look just like the coin in hand...How one achieves that is not important. Cheers, RickO
I take a few shots because at times you cant see the luster or cartwheel of a coin if you do not. But that is for the more modern pieces. For most older coins, a straight front flat shot will do because most don't have much luster left. But then again, I am just using my I phone and my loop. (oh boy) would like to learn to take better shots for sure, but currently working on other hobbies that a draining my funds. Some day perhaps
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I shoot in raw format with a nikon body and a sigma 150 macro, on a kaiser copystand. I have a t/s nikor lens as well, but still have not got that working well. I usually only have to shoot the image of a coin once to get it right. The focusing rail that messydesk recommended a few years back and a view magnifier help me to get the focus right nearly every time. Use a remote to do the shot to keep the camera stable. But to accurately portray an image of a coin, usually there has to be some tweaks in photoshop. Not juicing to make a glam shot, but tweaks to make the coin on the screen look like what you have in your hand next to the screen. Also, the biggest key is lighting - type, number, angle to coin and lens, etc. Different types of lights have different issues that have to be dealt with. In my experience, silver is the easiest to shoot, then copper, then gold. Still not happy with my gold images......
Best, SH
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Photographing coins, for me, it quite pleasurable. Extremely enjoyable, a hobby within a hobby. I find pleasure in imaging a coin in it best light to show off its beauty. I guess I could do the same thing with butterflies but I like coins a lot more
Plus....coins don't fly away.
Well, planetariums have butterflies.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Butterflies are actually very fun to photograph and not quite as difficult of a subject as you might think. Back when I was working at the premier photography supply store in Portland, I would help instruct at the "Winged Wonders" exhibit at the Oregon Zoo. We always held the classes in the morning as the butterflies were a lot less active with the lower temperatures. The images below were shot using a Nikon 105mm macro and Nikon 200mm Macro with available light.
My philosophy on coin photography is the same as it is on my dancing in public. I attempt to expose as few human beings to either as possible after the UN Security Council rightfully declared both 'Crimes Against Humanity'.
My goal is to capture the image as natural as it looks in hand, to me.
This is a old thread but I wanted to ask who here is taking slab photography? Then coming back and concentrating just on the coin and transferring it onto the slab shot. I thought I read a member here who had perfected this but cannot find the thread.
There is alot of good information from 2017 here.
“The goal of coin photography is to get the final product directly from the camera, and require as little post camera processing as possible.”
My thinking is more along the lines of:
“The goal of coin photography is to get the final product as close to what the coin looks like in hand as possible.”
That's a great idea @Gluggo
I never thought to do that
I think the poster was using photo shop but also that paint.net might also round crop a photo. I have photscape which will round crop but then leaves a square edges around the newly cropped photo.
So I am just trying to perfect some shots just so I can say I can. Not to sell coins but educational purpose. I don’t want to pay for photoshop (at least not yet) looking for free programs like photoscape. I have MS Paint but not tried it yet. Trying to find the members here seems he perfected it but it sounded complex still. TYIA
No matter what your set up - the coin itself is the challenge. The metal, the finish, the design, etc., all create a challenge for me. Some coins can be a single click. Others are going to to make you run up your freak out flag. And all this picture stuff can make some coins look great - and others absolutely horrible. Its a crap shoot every-time I stick the disk under the lens and turn on the light(s). My satisfaction is getting darn close and knowing they look whole a lot better than they use to...
WS
Gluggo...you're probably thinking of this thread: https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=341372
http://macrocoins.com
When I process a photo, I sit with the coin in front me and I try to duplicate the look of the piece, in hand, as best as I can. No matter what I do, I often have some white balance issues. Those I try to address as best I can. That often involves some additional processing because my photos tend to be "too yellow."
Ray, yes that is it and looks like its photshop but thats ok. But hey thank you and that Darth is some picture taker.
I also joined up have not posted yet. Somehow I figured you had something to do with all of this! Thank you
Okay I just uploaded Adobe Photo Shop CS6 and everything is up and running.
Now I just need to learn Photoshop. 
Coin photography is very subjective, always has been. After several 100's of thousands of images I've done. I still come across different ways to make a coin look "special" without retouching or manipulation of any kind.
Everyone knows that I suck at coin photography and I'm okay with that. It's one less favor others can ask of me.
Cheers
Bob
He's just planning to use the editor to circle crop a high quality shot of the coin for placement into an existing slab pic. Sort of a slab glamour shot. The result as shown in the thread I attached is really nice and gives more lighting freedom.
http://macrocoins.com