Options
Lincoln medal/plaque questions.
ldhair
Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭✭✭
The plaque is 28x22. The medal is 6 inches. It does not match other images I have seen. Reproduction?
Any thoughts would be great.
Larry
0
ldhair
Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Looks very nice..... No idea about authenticity.... Is it for sale someplace? Cheers, RickO
It's very cool, though I find the angle of "1865" quite odd.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Have not seen that one before. Looks legitimately vintage to early 20th Century, but when I do not know.
I have had it for several years.
I saw one of these for sale in a numismatic auction, but for the life of me cannot remember where.
Stacks Americana?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Heritage sold one a few months ago for $5100.
The problem with the one I posted is that it has the wrong medal for the piece. It looks like it belongs there but it's just wrong.
@ambro51 Is this similar to the one you showed (pictures are gone) back in '08?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/667120/round-brenner-lincoln-plaque
@ldhair Back in '09 you posted about another item on coin talk, and one of your responses in this thread:
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/lincoln-plaque-by-victor-d-brenner.49108/page-2
Included:
Brenner's Lincoln even showed up on a 22x28-inch bronze tablet depicting his bust in medallic form next to the text of the Gettysburg Address, cast by Gorham Co. and sold to half a dozen schools and public buildings. The City of New York purchased one such tablet in 1909 for the façade of Brooklyn's Borough Hall.
Seems he was quoting from here:
https://scvhistory.com/scvhistory/signal/coins/worden-coinage1107b.htm
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Back side of the medal.
If they were done for buildings and schools, maybe they could special order which medal was attached? This one is very similar - although not in a plaque, perhaps dates were added after hence the variation:
https://historical.ha.com/itm/political/abraham-lincoln-victor-david-brenner-plaque-by-gorham/a/6092-38094.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
Been lurking for a few months, signed up so I could add to this topic. I bought and sold one of these 15-20 years ago. Since Gorham made it I supposed that VDB was involved in some way.
The dealer I bought it from had a companion plaque featuring George Washington, same size, etc.. Would be cool to have them both but these things weigh a ton - the shipping cost at the time was about the same as the purchase price.
I sold it simply because I didn't have a suitable place to display it. Need a bigger house or a more understanding spouse.
Glad you did.
Presumably it did not have the text of the Gettysburg Address on it? Do you recall the subject of the text?
I think 99% of the people here are in the same boat.
Do you recall the subject of the text?
Sorry, no.
Got some bad news. Paul Cunningham got back with me. He feels it's just something that was put together. I trust he is correct. Oh well. I'll just hang it on the wall.
I am not quite sure how to react to this. "Put together" by whom? It appears to not be the one that has been seen before, but as @oldabeintx has attested to, other examples/subjects have been seen. As far as I know there is no "official" Lincoln plaque of this type. The maker was free to use whatever they had on hand.
Maybe this was a reissue when new round Lincoln inserts were made, or maybe this was the first version, etc. etc. It is also possible that someone pilfered the original round plaque and then it was later replaced, but any other scenario is also possible.
I agree with jbk. It has the right look somehow. The screws, washers, solder or flux, the p.17107 all have that early 20th century look. This is the kind of thing I buy impulsively and hide from my wife at my office.
Hate to say it, but It is possible that the original VDB "medal" was pilfered and replaced or removed and replaced. I'm going by memory now, but as I recall the medal was an integral part (not inserted) of the piece as made. However, medal looks very much like VDB's medal. If it has been replaced, one wonders what the source of the replacement might be. Who the heck would go the the trouble and expense of creating a deceptive piece? Think optimistically: perhaps this was a trial or early piece and Gorham put it together. The plaque matrix, with the Address looks very right. Regardless it's a very cool display piece for a Lincolniana collector and has enough legitimacy to my eye to conspicuously hang on the wall.
Presidential 6/22/2013 lot 122:
"
123.BRENNER LINCOLN MEDALLION MOUNTED ON A BRONZE PLAQUE, ND. a 108mm Bronze uniface medal of Abraham Lincoln has been affixed to the upper left corner of a 14 3/4 x 21” cast bronze plaque. Extremely Fine. The medal, type of King 303; obverse of Smedley 84, is signed V.D. Brenner at left and bears Brenner’s famous portrait of Lincoln facing right. It is dated 1809 in the left field and 1865 in the lower right field. The plaque contains the complete Gettysburg Address in 23 lines. Inscribed at the bottom, GETTYSBURG NOVEMBER 19, 1863 and a facsimile of Lincoln’s signature. At the top of the plaque is a 1 3/4” molding. The plaque has four grooved screw holes at the corners for mounting. The original mounting was probably a marble slab.
This imposing 21 lb. plaque was first sold by the Gorham Company in 1909 and offered by them up through the 1930’s. According to a brochure ca. 1935, “Gorham Commemorative Bronzes for Schools and Colleges,” this is the smaller of the two sizes in which this plaque was cast. The larger size measured 21 x 28”. We have yet to see one of these larger size pieces and are aware of only six or so in this size
"
Just took a second look at the reverse, the workmanship, everything pointed out. I'm in the 100% legit camp.
Ill try to catch him when he has a minute to talk this weekend at MSNS.
"A penny hit by lightning is worth six cents". Opie Taylor
Another one Heritage sold.
Thx for all the posts - very informative. Last night I was mulling this over and another angle popped into my head. Why is the "medal" a separate piece? Why not cast it all as one piece? I have two theories.
Could it be that:
1) the quality of the medal is higher than that of the plaque that has just text and so they were manufactured separately.
or
2) Gorham, who made the plaque, did not own the rights to make the medallion and had to buy them elsewhere. (Or, maybe they had a license yo make a certain amount, then had to renew, etc.).
As @oldabeintx wondered, how would a subsequent owner get an exact size medallion to replace a missing one?
I suspect that in this era commemorative items honoring Lincoln and others important to our history were commonplace. They produced whatever would sell, and if they had to switch it up or issue a new version then no big deal.
I still don't know why that date 1865 is at that crazy angle.
if you noddle around the internet you will find a few more of these plaques, which I assume are not yours or the Presdential piece. Wasn't able to see details or track them very far but the appearance was the same. Note that the date on the Gorham plaque auctioned by HA is odd as well, Does the date appear to have been part of the original casting? I like Strikeouts' notion that these dates may have been added. I wish I could tell you that the plaque that I owned had an odd date, but I can't. I will tell you that I owned a k303 at the time and my only recollection is that the images had the same appearance. I'm confident that my piece was good in part because of the George Washington companion plaque, in part because of Gorham's history, and in part because of the workmanship, the patina, the size and weight, everything. Add to that the documentation you've uncovered here...you have a nice piece.