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Real or Fake???? 1795 Dollar Double Struck

ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
edited November 11, 2017 8:10PM in U.S. Coin Forum

According to ANACS, PCGS and NGC, it's not.......According to "several early dollar specialists", it's genuine. I'm in the 'not' camp as I can't see how that doubling orientation could occur inside a collar.


https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-8OUG5

Comments

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭✭✭

    didn't half dollar collars with reeds start in 1836? I did not know they used collars before then.

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What collar? Am I missing something?
    Lance.

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will say fake just has that look.



    Hoard the keys.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a early novelty piece that was found with a metal detector.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sold for $1,800.00.... Ha I'd be hard pressed to pay $18.00 :D:p

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess is genuine. At some point long ago, because it was an unusual coin, somebody carved some graffiti or engraving in the obverse fields. Then later on somebody tooled it extensively and polished the fields to remove the graffiti.

  • ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭

    @lkeigwin said:
    What collar? Am I missing something?
    Lance.

    description from auctioneer:
    "Lot Description

    1795 Flowing Hair Silver Dollar. BB-21, B-1. Rarity-2. Two Leaves--Double Struck in Collar--Fine-12 Surfaces Smoothed, Tooled (Uncertified)."

    Their description seems to indicate they feel it's a counterfeit...........their disclaimer, "This is a must see, sold as is, no return lot.", seems to confirm their doubts.

  • ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:
    Sold for $1,800.00.... Ha I'd be hard pressed to pay $18.00 :D:p

    How do you think the guy feels that bought this coin in 2012 for $4,887.50....lol:

    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2BB0D

  • NapNap Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArizonaRareCoins said:

    @Broadstruck said:
    Sold for $1,800.00.... Ha I'd be hard pressed to pay $18.00 :D:p

    How do you think the guy feels that bought this coin in 2012 for $4,887.50....lol:

    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2BB0D

    Maybe happy to be rid of it?

  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is the second strike to the north or to the south ?

    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Definitely a tooled coin....would be a great find if MD'ing...Cheers, RickO

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The doubling confuses things, but when I look at the face of Ms. liberty and the style of the digits in the date, they look strange. I don't think that it's genuine.

    A guy showed up at an EAC (early coppers) convention years ago with a "double struck half Cent." One of the big problems was it looked like it had been made last month, which was probably not far from the truth. The Chinese are "aging" their stuff now so it looks more convincing.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArizonaRareCoins said:

    @lkeigwin said:
    What collar? Am I missing something?
    Lance.

    description from auctioneer:
    "Lot Description

    1795 Flowing Hair Silver Dollar. BB-21, B-1. Rarity-2. Two Leaves--Double Struck in Collar--Fine-12 Surfaces Smoothed, Tooled (Uncertified)."

    Their description seems to indicate they feel it's a counterfeit...........their disclaimer, "This is a must see, sold as is, no return lot.", seems to confirm their doubts.

    Thread title says "Half Dollar".
    Lance.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,157 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am very dubious, and would want to see it in hand before offering an opinion as to authenticity.

    One possible WAG, strictly for the sake of conversation: Genuine coin environmentally damaged, perhaps in the ground; heavily tooled by the fool that found it; then given a false second strike from false dies copied off the coin by some later owner in an attempt to make this wreck of a coin more valuable. Or not.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017 7:30AM

    . > @ArizonaRareCoins said:

    @Broadstruck said:
    Sold for $1,800.00.... Ha I'd be hard pressed to pay $18.00 :D:p

    How do you think the guy feels that bought this coin in 2012 for $4,887.50....lol:

    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-2BB0D

    Not good as the recent description along with making sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread also mentions enough warnings. It's actually quite sad yet quite humors as it reads like a Craigslist used problem car ad glorifying the positive attributes while overshadowing all the issues. Based on the 2012 listing auctioned as a genuine Federal mint error that buyer should have fought for S/B to take it back.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a fake. To me the surfaces just don't look right. But like someone already said this would be a MUST see in hand. No returns? In my mind that really tilts the scale it's a fake. I sure as hell would not wanna roll the dice on this one!

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • @BillJones said:
    The doubling confuses things, but when I look at the face of Ms. liberty and the style of the digits in the date, they look strange. I don't think that it's genuine.

    A guy showed up at an EAC (early coppers) convention years ago with a "double struck half Cent." One of the big problems was it looked like it had been made last month, which was probably not far from the truth. The Chinese are "aging" their stuff now so it looks more convincing.

    Yes its a fake coin, the date numbers dont match, especially the 7 and the 5, no matter how much you overstruck them they never could like like this.

  • ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭

    @lkeigwin said:
    Thread title says "Half Dollar".
    Lance.

    Thanks, corrected title.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017 5:14PM

    @privaterarecoincollector said:

    @BillJones said:
    The doubling confuses things, but when I look at the face of Ms. liberty and the style of the digits in the date, they look strange. I don't think that it's genuine.

    A guy showed up at an EAC (early coppers) convention years ago with a "double struck half Cent." One of the big problems was it looked like it had been made last month, which was probably not far from the truth. The Chinese are "aging" their stuff now so it looks more convincing.

    Yes its a fake coin, the date numbers dont match, especially the 7 and the 5, no matter how much you overstruck them they never could like like this.

    I don't know...did you see the PCGS Cent that I posted above?

  • ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @privaterarecoincollector said:

    @BillJones said:
    The doubling confuses things, but when I look at the face of Ms. liberty and the style of the digits in the date, they look strange. I don't think that it's genuine.

    A guy showed up at an EAC (early coppers) convention years ago with a "double struck half Cent." One of the big problems was it looked like it had been made last month, which was probably not far from the truth. The Chinese are "aging" their stuff now so it looks more convincing.

    Yes its a fake coin, the date numbers dont match, especially the 7 and the 5, no matter how much you overstruck them they never could like like this.

    I don't know...did you see the PCGS Cent that I posted above?

    That Cent appears to have been rotated and struck a 2nd time.......The Dollar appears to have inexplicably moved down and been struck a 2nd time which I find improbable.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,241 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArizonaRareCoins said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @privaterarecoincollector said:

    @BillJones said:
    The doubling confuses things, but when I look at the face of Ms. liberty and the style of the digits in the date, they look strange. I don't think that it's genuine.

    A guy showed up at an EAC (early coppers) convention years ago with a "double struck half Cent." One of the big problems was it looked like it had been made last month, which was probably not far from the truth. The Chinese are "aging" their stuff now so it looks more convincing.

    Yes its a fake coin, the date numbers dont match, especially the 7 and the 5, no matter how much you overstruck them they never could like like this.

    I don't know...did you see the PCGS Cent that I posted above?

    That Cent appears to have been rotated and struck a 2nd time.......The Dollar appears to have inexplicably moved down and been struck a 2nd time which I find improbable.

    I don't know. The collar was not what it is now. Even now, you get off-center strikes from planchets not sitting squarely in the collar.

    I'm not saying it is or isn't real. It has a surface that looks like it COULD have been cast. But that cent also almost looks fake

  • @jmlanzaf said:

    @ArizonaRareCoins said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @privaterarecoincollector said:

    @BillJones said:
    The doubling confuses things, but when I look at the face of Ms. liberty and the style of the digits in the date, they look strange. I don't think that it's genuine.

    A guy showed up at an EAC (early coppers) convention years ago with a "double struck half Cent." One of the big problems was it looked like it had been made last month, which was probably not far from the truth. The Chinese are "aging" their stuff now so it looks more convincing.

    Yes its a fake coin, the date numbers dont match, especially the 7 and the 5, no matter how much you overstruck them they never could like like this.

    I don't know...did you see the PCGS Cent that I posted above?

    That Cent appears to have been rotated and struck a 2nd time.......The Dollar appears to have inexplicably moved down and been struck a 2nd time which I find improbable.

    I don't know. The collar was not what it is now. Even now, you get off-center strikes from planchets not sitting squarely in the collar.

    I'm not saying it is or isn't real. It has a surface that looks like it COULD have been cast. But that cent also almost looks fake

    The Cent has the 7 and the 5 right, Im talking about the form and the thickness of the lines each of these two numbers. The 50 Cent does not match with the form and thickness of the lines of the 7 and 5 how they should be. The 7 and 5 like its made at the 1795 Half Dollar Double Struck were never made this way. This coin is not made in 1795.

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