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GTG: HK-398 1914 Panama Canal Medal. GRADE POSTED...

OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 1, 2017 8:20AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I was a bit disappointed. I was expecting at least a 64 and possibly a 65. The color is totally fresh in hand, not like the others with that orange, almost varnished look. It probably would have done better ATS.

But, I'll take it.

As you may recall, I was going through a box of junk coins and came across this HK-398 that I had totally forgot that I had. Just got it back from our hosts today. Anyone care to GTG?


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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    AU58. Probably a very high grade for this medal as most did not go to collectors and have probably been abused over the years.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    AU58. Probably a very high grade for this medal as most did not go to collectors and have probably been abused over the years.

    That's what I have found in my searching. Rarely come across one that's unc.

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    LoveMyLibertyLoveMyLiberty Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭

    Outhaul,,,very nice medal, great images for it & most
    of all you went to the trouble to increase the size of
    your piece for examination.
    I sure wish all the members here would increase the
    size.

    My Type Set

    R.I.P. Bear image
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    TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think I'll speak for many if I say....."I have no idea what one 'fresh off the press' looks like, so any opinion I give as to grade is completely worthless!"

    So...I'll agree with AU-58. :blush:

    Easily distracted Type Collector
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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some of these SCDs are not well struck. Nice ones are tough to find.

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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,121 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Really nice. I'll go with 58 as well.

    Larry

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    GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They tend to be all over the place with exonumia. I think PCGS gave it MS63.

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    PocketArtPocketArt Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful medal- I'd love to own one! Very tough to grade- I'd say because of the verdigris at 2 o'clock on the obverse, hit on cheek, vessel, and overall darkness obverse/reverse muting the medals finish...XF45.

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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice medal, I'd go AU-50, still very nice

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some of these SCDs are not well struck. Nice ones are tough to find.

    I have tried to engage the forum in discussing this point. it is interesting to me that with many SC's there are easily under 100 suspected to exist and pop numbers at NGC/PCGS of well under 20, yet we insist on grading these as though we know what the strike quality is supposed to be. most of the time it seems like they are graded from MS65 and down depending on other qualities such as contact marks, rims and overall appearance.

    armed with that thinking and accepting that what looks to be "rub" is actually fully lustered strike weakness I will say this grades MS63. it has a nice appearance and I'd expect it to a little darker in-hand. four digit serial numbers are scarce, less than that almost unheard of.

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    pmacpmac Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭

    keets said, "scarce, less than that almost unheard of." Any guesses on a real number for these ambiguities? ;)

    Paul
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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would say MS-61. It has a few minor marks and spots, but areas that would normally be "shiney" from a light rub appear to frosted.

    Having said that if it's NGC graded, it might have a lower grading number. Whoever did the token and medal grading for NGC years ago tended to be quite conservative.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2017 5:11AM

    @keets said:
    Some of these SCDs are not well struck. Nice ones are tough to find.

    I have tried to engage the forum in discussing this point. it is interesting to me that with many SC's there are easily under 100 suspected to exist and pop numbers at NGC/PCGS of well under 20, yet we insist on grading these as though we know what the strike quality is supposed to be. most of the time it seems like they are graded from MS65 and down depending on other qualities such as contact marks, rims and overall appearance.

    armed with that thinking and accepting that what looks to be "rub" is actually fully lustered strike weakness I will say this grades MS63. it has a nice appearance and I'd expect it to a little darker in-hand. four digit serial numbers are scarce, less than that almost unheard of.

    I totally agree. I think that because profit, rather than collectibility, was the motivation behind these SCDs, exceptional strikes are rare. As a matter of fact, there's one graded MS-65 from ATS that's on ebay right now and the strike and color isn't anywhere near this one.

    I have handled many of these and have found grading to be all over the place. It makes me wonder if anyone really knows how to grade them at all.

    Just my eversohumble opinion.

    Cheers

    Bob

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The obverse, with it's high relief and complexity, make it quite difficult to grade...The reverse is somewhat easier..... While not experienced at all with these pieces...I would venture a guess of MS64. Cheers, RickO

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    EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see any real rub, so I'll guess MS62. I'll be surprised if it goes higher due to the obverse spots.

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
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    tyler267tyler267 Posts: 1,234 ✭✭✭✭

    58

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whoever did the token and medal grading for NGC years ago tended to be quite conservative.

    Brian Silliman until about 2010 or so.

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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Grade posted.

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    kazkaz Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love it! Hope I come across one some day.

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    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a beautiful medal regardless of the grade.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2017 3:43AM

    It probably would have done better ATS.

    if my experience counts I would disagree, PCGS remains consistent in at least one area of their grading: they still tend to be slightly more conservative than NGC but not really much, the two tend to see these medals the same.

    I waited awhile after PCGS expanded their grading to SC$'s before I submitted any. the results were consistent with what I would expect from NGC and tended to be in line with my pre-submission assessments. after a few submissions I have begun to do some crossovers, my first submission went 5 of 6 from NGC to PCGS. I know this is still a small sample and that the pop reports show NGC has graded way more of these medals than PCGS, but my thinking is that results will be consistent to what we have always gotten from NGC.

    I do prefer the PCGS capsule, the clear plastic allows more light and the label is presented in a nicer format. I prefer symmetry and the way NGC has moved everything to the left doesn't appeal to me.

    as to the OP medal and capsule, I like it quite a bit. I have been looking for a suitable example for myself and never seem to find one. I think it's a pretty historic medal due to what it commemorates. it is also cool to see the words "Isthmus" and "Isthmian" on a medal!! :)

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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    It probably would have done better ATS.

    if my experience counts I would disagree, PCGS remains consistent in at least one area of their grading: they still tend to be slightly more conservative than NGC but not really much, the two tend to see these medals the same.

    I waited awhile after PCGS expanded their grading to SC$'s before I submitted any. the results were consistent with what I would expect from NGC and tended to be in line with my pre-submission assessments. after a few submissions I have begun to do some crossovers, my first submission went 5 of 6 from NGC to PCGS. I know this is still a small sample and that the pop reports show NGC has graded way more of these medals than PCGS, but my thinking is that results will be consistent to what we have always gotten from NGC.

    I do prefer the PCGS capsule, the clear plastic allows more light and the label is presented in a nicer format. I prefer symmetry and the way NGC has moved everything to the left doesn't appeal to me.

    as to the OP medal and capsule, I like it quite a bit. I have been looking for a suitable example for myself and never seem to find one. I think it's a pretty historic medal due to what it commemorates. it is also cool to see the words "Isthmus" and "Isthmian" on a medal!! :)

    I actually based my opinion on the not so scientific theory that ATS has been doing these for some time now where our hosts not so much. However, I feel that they are being too conservative. Of all the HK-398s I have handled, this is the sharpest one with the original color I have ever seen.

    I did choose our hosts for grading because they usually carry a premium and I, like you, do prefer the holder.

    Cheers

    Bob

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NGC changed a little when Mr. Silliman left. he had been the sole grader of these for a while so you had an idea of what you'd be getting. I'd be curious to know who, at PCGS, does the attribution, grading and finalizing.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well.. I was a grade off.... However, I feel good about that since I had never handled or attempted to grade one of these......A very nice piece indeed. Cheers, RickO

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    EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A point better than I expected. Congrats on the grade!

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @EXOJUNKIE said:
    A point better than I expected. Congrats on the grade!

    Thanks! A point better than you expected, but one (maybe two) less than I expected. Then again, I'm not an exonumia expert by ANY stretch of the imagination. I certainly have learned one thing, and that's that it is nothing like grading coins. As a matter of fact, I'm disappointed that more exonumists didn't comment on this. Their input would be priceless.

    I'm beginning to think that SCDs have an edge on being my next focus of collecting.

    Cheers

    Bob

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2017 6:51AM

    great, more competition!! :o

    PM when you need help or have questions and by all means, please post pictures of new acquisitions.

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