@grote15 said:
It is because most steals don't directly lead to a run
Yes, it must be just a coincidence then that the player with the most stolen bases in baseball history also has the most runs scored in baseball history, lol.
Does that reasoning also mean that pete rose is the greatest hitter because he has the most hits?
@grote15 said:
It is because most steals don't directly lead to a run
Yes, it must be just a coincidence then that the player with the most stolen bases in baseball history also has the most runs scored in baseball history, lol.
Does that reasoning also mean that pete rose is the greatest hitter because he has the most hits?
No, apples and oranges comparison.
OBP% and SLG% are more significant than hit totals. Ted Williams never had 200 hits in a single season.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I don't think generalized/average statistics on the effect of stolen bases apply to Rickey, Rickey was no average base stealer. Consider he didn't break Lou Brock's caught stealing record until 9 years after he broke the successfully stolen base record.
In a microcosm, you can make a variety of arguments where one guy looks better than the other, so a 2 year sample doesn't hold up. The 1st 10 year comparison between Boggs and Henderson are very comparable. After year 10 for Boggs, his production declined. After year 10 for Henderson, he won an MVP.
@baz518 said:
I don't think generalized/average statistics on the effect of stolen bases apply to Rickey, Rickey was no average base stealer. Consider he didn't break Lou Brock's caught stealing record until 9 years after he broke the successfully stolen base record.
It is true that Rickey was a great player. But the effect of the stolen base remains the same for him. They are not an efficient run scoring tool unless they are stolen at a VERY high percentage.
@grote15 said:
It is because most steals don't directly lead to a run
Yes, it must be just a coincidence then that the player with the most stolen bases in baseball history also has the most runs scored in baseball history, lol.
Does that reasoning also mean that pete rose is the greatest hitter because he has the most hits?
No, apples and oranges comparison.
OBP% and SLG% are more significant than hit totals. Ted Williams never had 200 hits in a single season.
How is it apples and oranges? You are saying a player who has amassed the highest raw stat to be the greatest run scorer. I made the same statement about the player with the most hits. I think you may have missed the point about the importance of rate stats as compared to raw stats.
@grote15 said:
You can cherry pick all you want, but Henderson's career OBP% of .401 was not much lower than Boggs's .415. Add all the extra bases via stolen bases on top of that and it's no wonder Henderson scored more runs than anyone in baseball history.
Boggs was a terrific player, too. His top 5 OPS+ career totals measure up with Henderson's though Henderson's two best seasons were also better than any season in Boggs's career.
We can go back and forth with this as both players were slam dunk HOFers and you can make a valid case for either one being the better player. My choice is still Henderson.
I assume you value career Value more than peak value? I think when comparing players that comparing them at their best, or peak is more valuable than evaluating their first few or last few years when they were either learning the game or physically depleted.
And when comparing who was the better player not just leadoff man, Boggs wins that one going away because of the positional advantage boggs holds playing third as well as being a better offensive player than Henderson
@grote15 said:
It is because most steals don't directly lead to a run
Yes, it must be just a coincidence then that the player with the most stolen bases in baseball history also has the most runs scored in baseball history, lol.
Does that reasoning also mean that pete rose is the greatest hitter because he has the most hits?
No, apples and oranges comparison.
OBP% and SLG% are more significant than hit totals. Ted Williams never had 200 hits in a single season.
How is it apples and oranges? You are saying a player who has amassed the highest raw stat to be the greatest run scorer. I made the same statement about the player with the most hits. I think you may have missed the point about the importance of rate stats as compared to raw stats.
No, you missed the point by assuming that amassing the most hits makes one the best hitter. Lamejohn summed it up succinctly above.
I know you cannot not get the last word in on debates like these but I've already stated my case so there's really nothing more to add.
Lastly, regarding peak, Henderson's two best seasons are still better than Boggs's best season as I also pointed out above.
I do give you credit for your tenacity, though, even in cases where you are mistaken.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@ClockworkAngel said:
Wow, this thread has really taken on a life of it's own.
How about we throw George Springer's name in the hat as the greatest leadoff hitter of all-time?
Hey, as a Mets fan, I always enjoyed watching Mookie Wilson, one of my personal favorites.
Springer is terrific, too. The Astros have an exceptional cote of young players if they can keep them together.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
It is because most steals don't directly lead to a run
Yes, it must be just a coincidence then that the player with the most stolen bases in baseball history also has the most runs scored in baseball history, lol.
Does that reasoning also mean that pete rose is the greatest hitter because he has the most hits?
No, apples and oranges comparison.
OBP% and SLG% are more significant than hit totals. Ted Williams never had 200 hits in a single season.
How is it apples and oranges? You are saying a player who has amassed the highest raw stat to be the greatest run scorer. I made the same statement about the player with the most hits. I think you may have missed the point about the importance of rate stats as compared to raw stats.
No, you missed the point by assuming that amassing the most hits makes one the best hitter. Lamejohn summed it up succinctly above.
I know you cannot not get the last word in on debates like these but I've already stated my case so there's really nothing more to add.
Lastly, regarding peak, Henderson's two best seasons are still better than Boggs's best season as I also pointed out above.
I do give you credit for your tenacity, though, even in cases where you are mistaken.
When I compared rose to Henderson and their respective raw stats, I in no way meant to say that I believe rose to be the greatest hitter just because he has the most hits. Similarly, I don't necessarily believe Henderson to be the greatest at scoring runs because he amassed the most. He amassed all of those runs, in part, because he played a very very long time. It was a hyperbolic statement used to drive home a point.
As far as peak, compare boggs 10 best years to Henderson's 10 best. Boggs rate stats will beat nearly all of Henderson's. Simply a more efficient player who played a more demanding defensive position. Let's not loose the fact that Rickey was a below average defensive player according to the metrics. I will temper that a bit though because defensive metrics are generally lacking.
Sanders, hands down. He'd have rushed for over 22,000 yards behind that Cowboy OL.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@baz518 said:
I don't think generalized/average statistics on the effect of stolen bases apply to Rickey, Rickey was no average base stealer. Consider he didn't break Lou Brock's caught stealing record until 9 years after he broke the successfully stolen base record.
It is true that Rickey was a great player. But the effect of the stolen base remains the same for him. They are not an efficient run scoring tool unless they are stolen at a VERY high percentage.
My point was more that with any generalized or averaging statistic, there's anomalies on the high end (way above the median) and anomalies on the low end (way below the median), the averaging smooths those anomalies out. But I would tend to think Rickey was on the high end of things, considering he is the all-time leader in runs scored (which is the point of the statistic you referenced, stolen bases being a run scoring tool). Wish there was a way to see how many of his stolen bases actually turned into runs.
Sanders, hands down. He'd have rushed for over 22,000 yards behind that Cowboy OL.
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it was a joke!
I didn't want to start another doozy
... but, you are CORRECT !
and Smith would have retired after 2 season behind the lions offensive line
LOL.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@craig44 said:
As far as boggs not hitting leadoff enough to be considered in this discussion, Henderson led off any inning during his career 5356 PA out of 13346 career PA for 40% of his career. Boggs led off any inning in his career 2876 PA out of 10740 career PA or 27% of his career. In totality, Henderson only has 13% more leadoff at bats for his career than Boggs.
NO. This is not how math works. It is actually 48% more.
@craig44 said:
As far as boggs not hitting leadoff enough to be considered in this discussion, Henderson led off any inning during his career 5356 PA out of 13346 career PA for 40% of his career. Boggs led off any inning in his career 2876 PA out of 10740 career PA or 27% of his career. In totality, Henderson only has 13% more leadoff at bats for his career than Boggs.
NO. This is not how math works. It is actually 48% more.
Exactly.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Lots of good points here, but one I'm not buying is how longevity of career is somehow an anchor to their legacy. Great players play longer, it's that simple. Can't fault Rickey for that any more than giving Barry Sanders credit for a short career. Rickey wasn't padding stats, he was getting paid to play. His services were more desirable compared to others who were retired, or cut, or in the minors.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
Both the Ozzie and Rickey rookies have been considered a card to own for well over 30 years. With so many made and so few in Gem Mint condition they will always be valuable. Fighting over stats may be fun and intellectually stimulating but the card prices are based on popularity of both the player and the card. The 1980 Topps Rickey Henderson is one of the best looking baseball cards ever. He looks like an impact player. When they debuted we were still in an era of a large amount of market participants not guarding their condition with their life. There are potentially more out there but with so many years of ripping packs taking place and current values of unopened the chances of a huge increase in the population totals for these two cards in a PSA 10 Gem Mint are very low. Both players were huge 80's baseball icons and that is a big deal.
I watched Rickey every day in San Diego which was at the end of his career. While he was nowhere near the same player as the 80’s or 90’s version, he helped the Padres in so many ways when he was here. It was far from a case of him just playing out the string ineffectively. He was still a stud and a leader with the usual Rickey flair. The fans and his teammates loved him
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
@Darin said:
How is giving Nolan Ryans' strikeout total proof that Rickey Henderson is the best leadoff hitter
of all time? I think you've wandered pretty far off script with that one. Rickey probably is the
best leadoff of all time, not sure where Cobb batted in the order but if it was leadoff he is at least
comparable to Henderson.
But Ryan isn't close to being the best power pitcher of all time. Yes, he has the most strikeouts.
Also I believe the most walks. But no Cy Young awards? Shouldn't the greatest of all time
have maybe 5 of those, like Randy Johnson. Or a couple MVP's like Walter Johnson?
Lefty Grove, Tom Seaver, Bob Gibson. All much better than Ryan.
If Ryan was such a great pitcher why was he never recognized with a Cy Young award.
Isn't close to being the best power pitcher of all time?? How do you define a power pitcher? K's, no hitters, batting average against....
Who leads MLB all time in K's per season and per career? Ryan
Who has thrown the most no hitters? Ryan
Who has the lowest batting average against as a pitcher? Ryan
We are not discussing Cy Young awards or best overall pitcher but best POWER pitcher, and by any and every metric Ryan is THE GOAT as a power pitcher. To say anything to the contrary is not being honest on any level, and to say he is not even close??
Tell me how you define a power pitcher? Baseball history would show one photo and it would be of one Lynn Nolan Ryan. Case closed.
@grote15 said:
It is because most steals don't directly lead to a run
Yes, it must be just a coincidence then that the player with the most stolen bases in baseball history also has the most runs scored in baseball history, lol.
Agree with Tim here 100%. Steals turn a single into a double and allow a single to score from second. How many runs do you think Harmon Killebrew scored or Frank Howard? Henderson caused pitchers to be out of rhythm, short stride which reduces their velocity, keeps catchers from staying down and framing well... All things that allow teams to hit better.
When a guy can steal what pitch do you think gets called more? Fastballs. Guess which pitch a hitter wants to see at the plate? A fastball. Ask the 1982 Cardinals how effective they were stealing bases, or the Big Red Machine with Rose and Morgan running along with Griffey which allowed Bench and Perez to have huge RBI numbers.
Tell that to Jose Bautista...Game 6, 2015 ALCS, Lorenzo Cain scored on Hosmer's single to right. He wasn't even running on the pitch, but once contact was made, never stopped, and to the Blue Jays' surprise, scored all the way from first base.
Kendall, I'm starting to wonder how you define a power pitcher.
Me, I sure don't automatically say the pitcher with the most strikeouts is the best power pitcher
of all time.
Like Craig said, do you also think Pete Rose is the best hitter because he had the most hits?
Its no use getting into a debate with you, we're too far apart on the issue. But I did name 5 or 6
pitchers who were known for a great fastball,(definition of power pitcher)
among other pitches, who were much better than Ryan.
But seriously, how can you not think Cy Young awards, or before that award started, MVPs',
shouldn't play a part in the discussion when you are the one saying, GOAT!
The Goat usually carries quite a bit of hardware, a la Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky.
But the Greatest power pitcher ever never won a Cy Young or 2 MVP' like Walter Johnson. No.
I'm not buying that. The greatest power pitcher ever shouldn't have the most career walks, either.
Seems like the Goat would have better control of his pitches.
Let's also compare peak WAR totals, too, just for fun.
Henderson
9.9
9.9
8.8
6.9
6.7
6.6
6.3
6.3
6.0
5.6
Boggs
9.1
8.4
8.3
8.3
8.0
7.8
6.4
6.3
4.5
4.2
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@Darin said:
Kendall, I'm starting to wonder how you define a power pitcher.
Me, I sure don't automatically say the pitcher with the most strikeouts is the best power pitcher
of all time.
Like Craig said, do you also think Pete Rose is the best hitter because he had the most hits?
Its no use getting into a debate with you, we're too far apart on the issue. But I did name 5 or 6
pitchers who were known for a great fastball,(definition of power pitcher)
among other pitches, who were much better than Ryan.
But seriously, how can you not think Cy Young awards, or before that award started, MVPs',
shouldn't play a part in the discussion when you are the one saying, GOAT!
The Goat usually carries quite a bit of hardware, a la Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky.
But the Greatest power pitcher ever never won a Cy Young or 2 MVP' like Walter Johnson. No.
I'm not buying that. The greatest power pitcher ever shouldn't have the most career walks, either.
Seems like the Goat would have better control of his pitches.
Darin
The discussion is on the greatest "power" pitcher not greatest overall pitcher. If this discussion was about the greatest overall pitcher I would not be saying a peep since Ryan's stats would not warrant it from a W/L record, K to walk ratio, WS wins, Cy Young's...
Since the discussion is about greatest power pitcher let's look at the definition of a power pitcher. " A power pitcher is one who relies on velocity of his pitches often at the expense of accuracy. Usually they are judged by the high number of strikeouts, and stats are measured as a function of K's per 9 innings."
Straight from Wikipedia and the Baseball Almanac. Guess who they picture and list first? Ryan. we can debate all we want on this one, but baseball history defines what a power pitcher is and using that definition it is not even up for debate on who the greatest power pitcher is of all time. Greatest overall would be a different subject.
The definition doesn't say a power pitcher has to be a starter....it says "high number of strikeouts, and stats are measured as a function of K's per 9 innings"
Nolan Ryan K/9: 9.5 for his career, best year was 11.5
Aroldis Chapman K/9 : 14.8 for his career, best year was 15.8
Aroldis Chapman, best "power" pitcher of all time!
Of course if you want to say Chapman hasn't pitched enough innings, and go with K/9 for starters with 1000 IP, Ryan is still way down the list.
I understand a lot of the HOF arguments and stuff like that but this seems absurd to me. I'm from Boston and watched Boggs in his prime. I also watched Rickey in the late-80s/early-90s. It's not close. NOT CLOSE. Rickey was a far superior offensive player. He literally altered each game he participated in. If you don't understand that statement, you didn't watch him play back then.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I understand a lot of the HOF arguments and stuff like that but this seems absurd to me. I'm from Boston and watched Boggs in his prime. I also watched Rickey in the late-80s/early-90s. It's not close. NOT CLOSE. Rickey was a far superior offensive player. He literally altered each game he participated in. If you don't understand that statement, you didn't watch him play back then.
Also, Rickey dominated on the road and at home and, in fact, dominated in one of the worst hitting parks going at Oakland.
Wade Boggs had the perfect swing for Fenway. I’m too lazy to look it up , but I did a long time ago and there was a huge discrepancy in Boggs stats at Fenway vs. on the road.
He might bat .368 one year but be close to .400 at home and .315 on the road. He got most of his doubles off the Green Monster
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
@mb2005 said:
The definition doesn't say a power pitcher has to be a starter....it says "high number of strikeouts, and stats are measured as a function of K's per 9 innings"
Nolan Ryan K/9: 9.5 for his career, best year was 11.5
Aroldis Chapman K/9 : 14.8 for his career, best year was 15.8
Aroldis Chapman, best "power" pitcher of all time!
Of course if you want to say Chapman hasn't pitched enough innings, and go with K/9 for starters with 1000 IP, Ryan is still way down the list.
Randy Johnson 10.6098
Chris Sale 10.5472
Stephen Strasburg 10.5414
Kerry Wood 10.3174 (partial-starter)
Max Scherzer 10.1956
Pedro Martinez 10.0398
Corey Kluber 9.9074
Clayton Kershaw 9.8605
Nolan Ryan 9.5481
Good luck with this. I think really the only stat Kendall will accept is most K's in a career.
I think a better debate on leadoff hitter would be Cobb vs. Rickey.
I would probably take Cobb if there was one game that was a must win.
I had just read a quote from another player who said Cobb treated every at bat like it was a crusade.
Thought that quote really spoke of how intense he was.
As far as power pitchers, you have to give weight to starters over relievers due the endurance factor... I would have Ryan and Johnson as 1a and 1b. As far as Cobb, IMO it's impossible to compare pre-war players with modern players. Not there fault, they just didn't have the resources/dedication/competition that modern players do. But you could certainly say he dominated his era more than Rickey.
@mb2005 said:
The definition doesn't say a power pitcher has to be a starter....it says "high number of strikeouts, and stats are measured as a function of K's per 9 innings"
Nolan Ryan K/9: 9.5 for his career, best year was 11.5
Aroldis Chapman K/9 : 14.8 for his career, best year was 15.8
Aroldis Chapman, best "power" pitcher of all time!
Of course if you want to say Chapman hasn't pitched enough innings, and go with K/9 for starters with 1000 IP, Ryan is still way down the list.
Randy Johnson 10.6098
Chris Sale 10.5472
Stephen Strasburg 10.5414
Kerry Wood 10.3174 (partial-starter)
Max Scherzer 10.1956
Pedro Martinez 10.0398
Corey Kluber 9.9074
Clayton Kershaw 9.8605
Nolan Ryan 9.5481
Good luck with this. I think really the only stat Kendall will accept is most K's in a career.
I am good. History and anyone with a baseball IQ over 75 knows the Mount Rushmore of power pitching starts and ends with Nolan Ryan. Don't take my word for it. Go watch the documentary called Fastball and listen to HOF players Johnny Bench, George Brett, Tony Gwynn, Al Kaline, Joe Morgan... and listen to them in their own words talk about the best, fastest, scariest pitcher who threw the hardest.
Chapman? Can't be he never won a Cy Young award or MVP award.
@mb2005 said:
The definition doesn't say a power pitcher has to be a starter....it says "high number of strikeouts, and stats are measured as a function of K's per 9 innings"
Nolan Ryan K/9: 9.5 for his career, best year was 11.5
Aroldis Chapman K/9 : 14.8 for his career, best year was 15.8
Aroldis Chapman, best "power" pitcher of all time!
Of course if you want to say Chapman hasn't pitched enough innings, and go with K/9 for starters with 1000 IP, Ryan is still way down the list.
Randy Johnson 10.6098
Chris Sale 10.5472
Stephen Strasburg 10.5414
Kerry Wood 10.3174 (partial-starter)
Max Scherzer 10.1956
Pedro Martinez 10.0398
Corey Kluber 9.9074
Clayton Kershaw 9.8605
Nolan Ryan 9.5481
Good luck with this. I think really the only stat Kendall will accept is most K's in a career.
I am good. History and anyone with a baseball IQ over 75 knows the Mount Rushmore of power pitching starts and ends with Nolan Ryan. Don't take my word for it. Go watch the documentary called Fastball and listen to HOF players Johnny Bench, George Brett, Tony Gwynn, Al Kaline, Joe Morgan... and listen to them in their own words talk about the best, fastest, scariest pitcher who threw the hardest.
Chapman? Can't be he never won a Cy Young award or MVP award.
Who else are we putting on this Rushmore, my friend?
I would say Ryan, Koufax, Randy Johnson, and maybe Bob Gibson - Gibson because he would probably throw at me at the National in Cleveland if I did not include him
I think a case could also be made for Walter Johnson and Bob Feller from the veterans committee.
I don’t know much about 1979 but I looked at the population report and I just noticed the Paul Molitor has 819 submitted and ONLY 1 PSA 10.
Wouldn’t that be almost proportionally as rare as the Ozzie Smith?
But that is his 2nd year card. It is a tough low pop card so worth plenty if you land a 10, but not close to Ozzie.
I disagree. And I think that’s why we’re seeing such a decline with the value of the Ozzie as the pop increases.
A pop 1 card of a HOF player, from what appears to be such a condition sensitive year, when so many cards have been subbed for that card, carries some special value.
If it becomes a pop 2 then I’d think it’s value would certainly fall just as has happened for the Ozzie Smith as it’s pop has been gradually swelling.
Comments
Does that reasoning also mean that pete rose is the greatest hitter because he has the most hits?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No, apples and oranges comparison.
OBP% and SLG% are more significant than hit totals. Ted Williams never had 200 hits in a single season.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I don't think generalized/average statistics on the effect of stolen bases apply to Rickey, Rickey was no average base stealer. Consider he didn't break Lou Brock's caught stealing record until 9 years after he broke the successfully stolen base record.
In a microcosm, you can make a variety of arguments where one guy looks better than the other, so a 2 year sample doesn't hold up. The 1st 10 year comparison between Boggs and Henderson are very comparable. After year 10 for Boggs, his production declined. After year 10 for Henderson, he won an MVP.
It is true that Rickey was a great player. But the effect of the stolen base remains the same for him. They are not an efficient run scoring tool unless they are stolen at a VERY high percentage.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Pete Rose is the greatest at getting a hit, but not the best hitter of all time.
How is it apples and oranges? You are saying a player who has amassed the highest raw stat to be the greatest run scorer. I made the same statement about the player with the most hits. I think you may have missed the point about the importance of rate stats as compared to raw stats.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I assume you value career Value more than peak value? I think when comparing players that comparing them at their best, or peak is more valuable than evaluating their first few or last few years when they were either learning the game or physically depleted.
And when comparing who was the better player not just leadoff man, Boggs wins that one going away because of the positional advantage boggs holds playing third as well as being a better offensive player than Henderson
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No, you missed the point by assuming that amassing the most hits makes one the best hitter. Lamejohn summed it up succinctly above.
I know you cannot not get the last word in on debates like these but I've already stated my case so there's really nothing more to add.
Lastly, regarding peak, Henderson's two best seasons are still better than Boggs's best season as I also pointed out above.
I do give you credit for your tenacity, though, even in cases where you are mistaken.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Wow, this thread has really taken on a life of it's own.
How about we throw George Springer's name in the hat as the greatest leadoff hitter of all-time?
TheClockworkAngelCollection
Hey, as a Mets fan, I always enjoyed watching Mookie Wilson, one of my personal favorites.
Springer is terrific, too. The Astros have an exceptional cote of young players if they can keep them together.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Why compare peak seasons? I mean we aren't adding Brady Anderson to the debate.
When I compared rose to Henderson and their respective raw stats, I in no way meant to say that I believe rose to be the greatest hitter just because he has the most hits. Similarly, I don't necessarily believe Henderson to be the greatest at scoring runs because he amassed the most. He amassed all of those runs, in part, because he played a very very long time. It was a hyperbolic statement used to drive home a point.
As far as peak, compare boggs 10 best years to Henderson's 10 best. Boggs rate stats will beat nearly all of Henderson's. Simply a more efficient player who played a more demanding defensive position. Let's not loose the fact that Rickey was a below average defensive player according to the metrics. I will temper that a bit though because defensive metrics are generally lacking.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith ?
Barry no question.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Sanders, hands down. He'd have rushed for over 22,000 yards behind that Cowboy OL.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it was a joke!
I didn't want to start another doozy
... but, you are CORRECT !
and Smith would have retired after 2 season behind the lions offensive line
Ginger or Mary Ann?
My point was more that with any generalized or averaging statistic, there's anomalies on the high end (way above the median) and anomalies on the low end (way below the median), the averaging smooths those anomalies out. But I would tend to think Rickey was on the high end of things, considering he is the all-time leader in runs scored (which is the point of the statistic you referenced, stolen bases being a run scoring tool). Wish there was a way to see how many of his stolen bases actually turned into runs.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was an entire forum to discuss these kind of things? https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/979394/barry-sanders-best-rb-of-all-time/p1
LOL.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Seriously ?
mary ann is Rickey & wade all in one
neither. mrs howell!
NO. This is not how math works. It is actually 48% more.
Exactly.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Lots of good points here, but one I'm not buying is how longevity of career is somehow an anchor to their legacy. Great players play longer, it's that simple. Can't fault Rickey for that any more than giving Barry Sanders credit for a short career. Rickey wasn't padding stats, he was getting paid to play. His services were more desirable compared to others who were retired, or cut, or in the minors.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Both the Ozzie and Rickey rookies have been considered a card to own for well over 30 years. With so many made and so few in Gem Mint condition they will always be valuable. Fighting over stats may be fun and intellectually stimulating but the card prices are based on popularity of both the player and the card. The 1980 Topps Rickey Henderson is one of the best looking baseball cards ever. He looks like an impact player. When they debuted we were still in an era of a large amount of market participants not guarding their condition with their life. There are potentially more out there but with so many years of ripping packs taking place and current values of unopened the chances of a huge increase in the population totals for these two cards in a PSA 10 Gem Mint are very low. Both players were huge 80's baseball icons and that is a big deal.
I watched Rickey every day in San Diego which was at the end of his career. While he was nowhere near the same player as the 80’s or 90’s version, he helped the Padres in so many ways when he was here. It was far from a case of him just playing out the string ineffectively. He was still a stud and a leader with the usual Rickey flair. The fans and his teammates loved him
TheClockworkAngelCollection
Isn't close to being the best power pitcher of all time?? How do you define a power pitcher? K's, no hitters, batting average against....
Who leads MLB all time in K's per season and per career? Ryan
Who has thrown the most no hitters? Ryan
Who has the lowest batting average against as a pitcher? Ryan
We are not discussing Cy Young awards or best overall pitcher but best POWER pitcher, and by any and every metric Ryan is THE GOAT as a power pitcher. To say anything to the contrary is not being honest on any level, and to say he is not even close??
Tell me how you define a power pitcher? Baseball history would show one photo and it would be of one Lynn Nolan Ryan. Case closed.
Agree with Tim here 100%. Steals turn a single into a double and allow a single to score from second. How many runs do you think Harmon Killebrew scored or Frank Howard? Henderson caused pitchers to be out of rhythm, short stride which reduces their velocity, keeps catchers from staying down and framing well... All things that allow teams to hit better.
When a guy can steal what pitch do you think gets called more? Fastballs. Guess which pitch a hitter wants to see at the plate? A fastball. Ask the 1982 Cardinals how effective they were stealing bases, or the Big Red Machine with Rose and Morgan running along with Griffey which allowed Bench and Perez to have huge RBI numbers.
No one will score from first on a single.
Tell that to Jose Bautista...Game 6, 2015 ALCS, Lorenzo Cain scored on Hosmer's single to right. He wasn't even running on the pitch, but once contact was made, never stopped, and to the Blue Jays' surprise, scored all the way from first base.
Kendall, I'm starting to wonder how you define a power pitcher.
Me, I sure don't automatically say the pitcher with the most strikeouts is the best power pitcher
of all time.
Like Craig said, do you also think Pete Rose is the best hitter because he had the most hits?
Its no use getting into a debate with you, we're too far apart on the issue. But I did name 5 or 6
pitchers who were known for a great fastball,(definition of power pitcher)
among other pitches, who were much better than Ryan.
But seriously, how can you not think Cy Young awards, or before that award started, MVPs',
shouldn't play a part in the discussion when you are the one saying, GOAT!
The Goat usually carries quite a bit of hardware, a la Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky.
But the Greatest power pitcher ever never won a Cy Young or 2 MVP' like Walter Johnson. No.
I'm not buying that. The greatest power pitcher ever shouldn't have the most career walks, either.
Seems like the Goat would have better control of his pitches.
As far as peak, compare boggs 10 best years to Henderson's 10 best. Boggs rate stats will beat nearly all of Henderson's.
Like the math miscalculation with leadoff statistics noted above, this statement is simply not accurate.
Top 10 years for Henderson & Boggs, OPS & OPS+, measurements which are widely regarded as the most accurate assessments of how well a hitter performs.
OPS+
Henderson
189
182
157
155
151
148
148
146
145
139
Boggs
174
168
157
151
150
142
142
140
128
125
OPS
Henderson
1.023
1.016
.934
.920
.906
.889
.883
.863
.857
.855
Boggs
1.049
.965
.939
.931
.928
.922
.881
.879
.847
.834
Let's also compare peak WAR totals, too, just for fun.
Henderson
9.9
9.9
8.8
6.9
6.7
6.6
6.3
6.3
6.0
5.6
Boggs
9.1
8.4
8.3
8.3
8.0
7.8
6.4
6.3
4.5
4.2
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Darin
The discussion is on the greatest "power" pitcher not greatest overall pitcher. If this discussion was about the greatest overall pitcher I would not be saying a peep since Ryan's stats would not warrant it from a W/L record, K to walk ratio, WS wins, Cy Young's...
Since the discussion is about greatest power pitcher let's look at the definition of a power pitcher. " A power pitcher is one who relies on velocity of his pitches often at the expense of accuracy. Usually they are judged by the high number of strikeouts, and stats are measured as a function of K's per 9 innings."
Straight from Wikipedia and the Baseball Almanac. Guess who they picture and list first? Ryan. we can debate all we want on this one, but baseball history defines what a power pitcher is and using that definition it is not even up for debate on who the greatest power pitcher is of all time. Greatest overall would be a different subject.
KC
The definition doesn't say a power pitcher has to be a starter....it says "high number of strikeouts, and stats are measured as a function of K's per 9 innings"
Nolan Ryan K/9: 9.5 for his career, best year was 11.5
Aroldis Chapman K/9 : 14.8 for his career, best year was 15.8
Aroldis Chapman, best "power" pitcher of all time!
Of course if you want to say Chapman hasn't pitched enough innings, and go with K/9 for starters with 1000 IP, Ryan is still way down the list.
I understand a lot of the HOF arguments and stuff like that but this seems absurd to me. I'm from Boston and watched Boggs in his prime. I also watched Rickey in the late-80s/early-90s. It's not close. NOT CLOSE. Rickey was a far superior offensive player. He literally altered each game he participated in. If you don't understand that statement, you didn't watch him play back then.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rdoilt2YQMw
Rickey was awesome!
Also, Rickey dominated on the road and at home and, in fact, dominated in one of the worst hitting parks going at Oakland.
Wade Boggs had the perfect swing for Fenway. I’m too lazy to look it up , but I did a long time ago and there was a huge discrepancy in Boggs stats at Fenway vs. on the road.
He might bat .368 one year but be close to .400 at home and .315 on the road. He got most of his doubles off the Green Monster
TheClockworkAngelCollection
Good luck with this. I think really the only stat Kendall will accept is most K's in a career.
I think a better debate on leadoff hitter would be Cobb vs. Rickey.
I would probably take Cobb if there was one game that was a must win.
I had just read a quote from another player who said Cobb treated every at bat like it was a crusade.
Thought that quote really spoke of how intense he was.
As far as power pitchers, you have to give weight to starters over relievers due the endurance factor... I would have Ryan and Johnson as 1a and 1b. As far as Cobb, IMO it's impossible to compare pre-war players with modern players. Not there fault, they just didn't have the resources/dedication/competition that modern players do. But you could certainly say he dominated his era more than Rickey.
That is better than any PSA 10 I have seen. That seller might have left $17K on the table.
I am good. History and anyone with a baseball IQ over 75 knows the Mount Rushmore of power pitching starts and ends with Nolan Ryan. Don't take my word for it. Go watch the documentary called Fastball and listen to HOF players Johnny Bench, George Brett, Tony Gwynn, Al Kaline, Joe Morgan... and listen to them in their own words talk about the best, fastest, scariest pitcher who threw the hardest.
Chapman? Can't be he never won a Cy Young award or MVP award.
Who else are we putting on this Rushmore, my friend?
Arthur
I would say Ryan, Koufax, Randy Johnson, and maybe Bob Gibson - Gibson because he would probably throw at me at the National in Cleveland if I did not include him
I think a case could also be made for Walter Johnson and Bob Feller from the veterans committee.
I was going to say, how do you not put WaJo on the list?
WOW look at my thread go!
I don’t know much about 1979 but I looked at the population report and I just noticed the Paul Molitor has 819 submitted and ONLY 1 PSA 10.
Wouldn’t that be almost proportionally as rare as the Ozzie Smith?
DELETE
But that is his 2nd year card. It is a tough low pop card so worth plenty if you land a 10, but not close to Ozzie.
I disagree. And I think that’s why we’re seeing such a decline with the value of the Ozzie as the pop increases.
A pop 1 card of a HOF player, from what appears to be such a condition sensitive year, when so many cards have been subbed for that card, carries some special value.
If it becomes a pop 2 then I’d think it’s value would certainly fall just as has happened for the Ozzie Smith as it’s pop has been gradually swelling.