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Stolen coins after the PAN show

PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭✭✭

As I understand it the dealer and his wife went to dinner at a local restaurant and their car was broken into.
Estimated loss is in the area of$70,000.00.
At this time that is all the information I have

Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


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    CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    Do Dealer's not talk among themselves about security? What this couple did was a huge no no. Hope they were insured.

    Nothing else to add.

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    Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017 5:27PM

    On of the great things about the PNNA show in Portland is that every dealer got a 2 page best practices on how to protect your assets the day of the show. Written by Danny Bisgard, if was very good and everyone got a copy. Leaving coins unattened was among them..

    I am so sorry this happened to these folks give us a list and we can all keep an eye out for them.

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    PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm trying to get more information

    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,121 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It seems like the bad guys never get caught on a deal like this.

    Larry

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    COINS MAKE CENTSCOINS MAKE CENTS Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a real shame.

    Who were the dealers?

    New inventory added daily at Coins Make Cents
    HAPPY COLLECTING


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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,835 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017 7:23PM

    !

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    GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 16,857 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017 12:20PM

    The criminal is the problem. Nobody else.

    Therefore, the potential victim must be on the defense at all times......sad, but that's life today.

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    KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pure stupidity to the nth degree.

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    bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017 5:14PM

    An ounce of prevention..............

    And everyone here would be pleased to hear that the police recovered all of the couples coins.
    There is plenty of compassion here.

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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017 8:34AM

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    *******. And it's a woman's fault she is raped, right ? I don't understand those who lack compassion for victims , and then put blame on the innocent. If it ain't yours, keep your ________ hands off of it. The thief is still the bad person. It's not the fault of those who are victimized. I don't care if they left their doors unlocked. The parents of the criminals aren't the blame, either. The criminal is the punk *** *****. Nobody else.

    This type of thinking has always bugged me. Of COURSE the rapist/thief are to blame, and deserve punishment. But why make it easier for them? I am going to raise my daughters to be cautious, and not flaunt themselves. Yes, it would still be the rapists fault, but why tempt them?

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    KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017 7:09PM

    It's no secret that Americans are the easiest targets for crooks to take advantage of. This is just one of many such repeated incidents.

    Think Nigerian email scams or alleged phone calls of a stranded love ones asking for air fares via Western Union.

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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,121 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017 5:05AM

    Sad that dealers have to worry about this.

    Larry

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    BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,293 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agree with Jwitten....

    To go blindly about life and not care about SMART PRACTICES in life, is just moronic!
    Of course it is the CRIMINALS fault. Duh. However, if one can prevent that criminal from wanting to take action, then one wins.

    A woman wearing a skirt should NOT be raped. A woman wearing a skirt into a crime ridden neighborhood, after dark, that is known for violent/sexual crimes is being stupid! Just as she would be doing drugs or getting drunk to the point of incapacitation. No one should go that far.

    The coin dealer, who is hungry, shouldn't say "well, we have almost 6 figures in coins, and it was a great show, so let's celebrate by leaving everything in our car, going into a nice sit down restaurant, and chillin'". Rather, go through a drive through or wait until you are home. Secure the coins. Make yourself safe. Eat. Don't ALLOW yourself to become a victim.

    @jwitten said:

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    Dickheads. And it's a woman's fault she is raped, right ? I don't understand those who lack compassion for victims , and then put blame on the innocent. If it ain't yours, keep your ________ hands off of it. The thief is still the bad person. It's not the fault of those who are victimized. I don't care if they left their doors unlocked. The parents of the criminals aren't the blame, either. The criminal is the punk ass bitch. Nobody else.

    This type of thinking has always bugged me. Of COURSE the rapist/thief are to blame, and deserve punishment. By why make it easier for them? I am going to raise my daughters to be cautious, and not flaunt themselves. Yes, it would still be the rapists fault, but why tempt them?

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry children.

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    ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Same thing happens at least once a year.

    Coin show's over.....car in restaurant lot full of coins.....coins gone.

    If I had an insurance company I would make it clear I would not insure any losses from an unattended vehicle.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,193 ✭✭✭✭✭

    drive through burgers

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    I would think that thieves would target a specific dealer at a show like this because they have knowledge of what to expect, they wouldn't just pick someone out and hope they'll stop on their way home. that tells me the theif(s) fall into one of two categories --- someone who knows their habits or someone who overheard them state their plans to stop.

    Yes! I’ve read this same report over and over on these boards. Same exact M.O.
    It is sad and scary.
    However,
    @keets is right on the mark, so to speak. It seems to be either an “insider” alerting a co-conspirator, or someone waiting around long enough to overhear dealers’ dinner plans. And I hate to say, the former seems like a more logical option.

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    RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭

    And then I had another thought when I read what...

    @ms70 said:
    Same thing happens at least once a year.

    Coin show's over.....car in restaurant lot full of coins.....coins gone.

    If I had an insurance company I would make it clear I would not insure any losses from an unattended vehicle.

    ...and it dawned on me the consistent M.O. may suggest an ongoing insurance scam.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2017 11:14PM

    I feel bad for this dealer and his wife. I hope the coins are found.

    It seems like this type of loss happens quite a bit after shows when stopping at a restaurant on the drive home.

    Does insurance cover this type of loss and does the dealer have insurance? If so I hope the insurance company can take care of this.

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    air4mdcair4mdc Posts: 797 ✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    I would think that thieves would target a specific dealer at a show like this because they have knowledge of what to expect, they wouldn't just pick someone out and hope they'll stop on their way home. that tells me the theif(s) fall into one of two categories --- someone who knows their habits or someone who overheard them state their plans to stop.

    I don't think it's uncommon for a dealer to stop for breakfast prior to a show, every one of these thefts seems to be on the way home after a show. the solution is surprisingly simple: dealers should leave a show and go directly home and they should probably carry a sidearm.

    Please never go straight home after a show. Why lead a perp to the mother lode? Why put you and your family at risk for a home invasion/murder.
    Take a long detour or go straight to the bank safety deposit and then along detour home.
    In my past career as a LEO I can't even begin to tell you the home invaders/murderers I have met. They are coming in with you home or without you home. Thank goodness they got the stuff at the car and not their home. I have also meant some of the most brilliant white collar crime perps who have embezzled and stole millions. Most appear as the nicest people.
    Don't trust anyone. It's only going to get worse as time goes on and more people get desperate for drug money. And never let anyone know you have guns. Their coming for sure.
    And then you read about so many of these incidents happening at the cafe you wonder if it's an inside job for insurance money. Not saying it is in this instance but I think most dealers/collectors know about this scenario.
    JMTC's

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    RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,371 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RegistryCoin said:
    And then I had another thought when I read what...

    @ms70 said:
    Same thing happens at least once a year.

    Coin show's over.....car in restaurant lot full of coins.....coins gone.

    If I had an insurance company I would make it clear I would not insure any losses from an unattended vehicle.

    ...and it dawned on me the consistent M.O. may suggest an ongoing insurance scam.

    Actually, it dawns on me that the crooks have had success, so they keep doing it.
    Which is more likely?

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

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    LeeBoneLeeBone Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmmm, maybe just grab something to eat either before or during the show to prevent any stops afterwards on your way home to your ultimate destination. Just a thought... ;)

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    giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Justacommeman said:
    It's not as if it's the same dealers doing this over and over. People never think it will happen to them.....until it happens to them.

    We all have made stupid mistakes. I feel bad for them.

    m

    Of course I feel bad for them too. But I and Mrs VDB have left shows with far less in inventory, and we went through takeout Mickey D's to avoid being tempting targets. It does occur that it could happen to us.

    I used to do a small show in Salem Va with a dealer whose prices were so high, he basically never sold anything. His display cases were trophies, and he had more than $300,000 in inventory when he and his wife stopped at a cafeteria on the way home (so I was told). This was maybe 10 years ago, and I no longer recall his name or the circumstances beyond that. I used to do the Dalton show with Colonel Ellsworth, who always had some handy tips for the other dealers. One group of malefactors used to partially deflate tires on dealers' cars so they would have to stop on the way home.

    It happens.

    Don't be a target. Bring a sandwich for the drive, or stop at the drive-through. Y'all be safe out there.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
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    BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 8,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    drive through burgers

    Yes, to prevent "drive thru burglars".

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree it's really a shame none of the crooks get caught, or loot recovered and I know over half dozen cases of dealers robbed. Insurance doesn't cover vehicle content robberies. They should set up a sting with Joe Doofus dealer with his gold coins, thieves salivate and await their chance: end of day he loads his golden quarry into the back of his old Chevy, ambles into McD's, thieves think the coast is clear for their caper. Heavily armed buddies are awaiting them and ambush them. Problem solved, word gets out to the criminals that there are a lot of hidden ambushes out there if next time.

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    DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,198 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you really have to eat, there are three options.

    1. Eat at the coin show (it's been done before, witness the many mustard stained shirts).

    2. Pack a lunch!!

    3. If you must stop at a restaurant before or after a show, for God's sake, use the drive-through!!

    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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    RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭

    Not sure. I agree the crook(s) have had success so they continue.
    For years and years now, it continues. It’s the same story each time.
    Success may explain the repetition, but success doesn’t explain the crooks’ ostensible omniscience.
    How do they know who to follow?
    How do they successfully find that dealer who doesn’t share info about risks with other dealers, who doesn’t read this forum (obviously), who plans to perfectly play into their plan?
    Out of the all the visiting collectors and all the attending dealers, how do they select the one mark who plans to leave the show with a trunk load of coins, not go to a hotel, not go to a house, not go on a long trip home, but only stop at a nearby restaurant, then never go out to check the car, never sit with their car in view, just enjoy a meal while their coins are stolen from the car’s sealed trunk?
    Over and over again and again?
    Then again, I admit maybe it is just luck or a coincidence.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This makes me sad.... it is reported here at least twice a year... same scenario. I wish the dealer the best on recovery. Cheers, RickO

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    sellitstoresellitstore Posts: 2,482 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This happens much less with paper money because it has serial numbers that can't be erased and it can't be melted down.

    Census information keeps track of specific owners of specific better pieces. Gold and jewelry are just bigger and better targets.

    I wonder how many dealers are followed and don't stop and never know that they were unsuccessfully targeted and dodged a bullet. The smash and grab thieves never confront their victims and probably make many more attempts about which we never know.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
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    RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with all your counterpoints, including we don’t know the number of times someone is followed without an incident, but I’d just like to add, that number could be zero.

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,894 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2017 5:45AM

    Going to or coming back from a show would be a mandatory drive-thru meal for me...sorry honey, I will make it up to you later.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
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    BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,987 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RichieURich said:

    @RegistryCoin said:
    Not sure. I agree the crook(s) have had success so they continue.
    For years and years now, it continues. It’s the same story each time.
    Success may explain the repetition, but success doesn’t explain the crooks’ ostensible omniscience.
    How do they know who to follow?
    How do they successfully find that dealer who doesn’t share info about risks with other dealers, who doesn’t read this forum (obviously), who plans to perfectly play into their plan?
    Out of the all the visiting collectors and all the attending dealers, how do they select the one mark who plans to leave the show with a trunk load of coins, not go to a hotel, not go to a house, not go on a long trip home, but only stop at a nearby restaurant, then never go out to check the car, never sit with their car in view, just enjoy a meal while their coins are stolen from the car’s sealed trunk?
    Over and over again and again?
    Then again, I admit maybe it is just luck or a coincidence.

    How do the crooks know who to follow?
    It's easy, just walk around, find a talkative dealer who mentions he will be stopping for dinner after the show.
    It's kind of like painting a target on your back.
    Plus it doesn't matter if the car is in view of the person at the restaurant. It takes criminals 30 seconds to open and empty a car trunk. How fast can you run out of a restaurant, given that it takes 10 seconds of the 30 to figure out what they are doing? Remember that you might have to push your way through a crowd at the door.
    Suggestion: dealers should not discuss ANY aspect of security in public. This includes travel plans, times that the coins are taken out of the bank and returned to the bank, travel routes, weaponry, etc. Every so often I get someone I don't know say "How do you get all of these coins home?" And some dealers will answer that question. I will too: "I don't discuss any aspect of security with anyone." Then the idiot will say "No, really, how do you get all of those coins home?"

    Edit to add: just because we know about the burglaries, doesn't mean that they are successful every time. You don't hear about the times they followed someone and didn't succeed.

    Not everyone goes to the show to look at/buy coins. Some go to do their homework about who to go after once the show is over.

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    RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭

    Ok I’m close to being convinced I’m wrong, but, consider these conundrums:
    some dealers haven’t read or heeded any past forum discussions? (ok. I get that. That’s definitely possible, if not probable),
    some dealers don’t talk with, or don’t heed advice from others about inherent risks of doing business at shows? (less probable but possible),
    some dealers don’t see a totally unacceptable risk storing coins unattended in their cars in public places, or have a fiduciary responsibility not to do so? (unlikely I would hope).
    So it’s just hard to see dealers doing all these things wrong, and announce their dinner plans at a show.
    Dealers are, and have to be entrepreneurs, wholesale and retail sales professionals, mathematicians, economists, statisticians, in other words, smart, not to mention street-smart, outgoing, savvy and shrewd, with a great deal of common sense.
    I’m close to being convinced but not quite.

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    KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RegistryCoin said:
    Ok I’m close to being convinced I’m wrong, but, consider these conundrums:
    some dealers haven’t read or heeded any past forum discussions? (ok. I get that. That’s definitely possible, if not probable),
    some dealers don’t talk with, or don’t heed advice from others about inherent risks of doing business at shows? (less probable but possible),
    some dealers don’t see a totally unacceptable risk storing coins unattended in their cars in public places, or have a fiduciary responsibility not to do so? (unlikely I would hope).
    So it’s just hard to see dealers doing all these things wrong, and announce their dinner plans at a show.
    Dealers are, and have to be entrepreneurs, wholesale and retail sales professionals, mathematicians, economists, statisticians, in other words, smart, not to mention street-smart, outgoing, savvy and shrewd, with a great deal of common sense.
    I’m close to being convinced but not quite.

    I totally disagree w/your assessment & have a 2 word answer: common sense.

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    FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These guys know exactly where dealers
    LEAVE the show - they know, by Saturday,
    where the dealers wheel or carry their
    material, usually out thru a back exit -
    and they know the one or two car exists
    from that area.

    If they haven't already identified a target
    in the show, they just have to pick a dealer
    driving out of that back parking lot, and following
    them.

    Not an insurance scam, not (usually) overheard
    conversations - simply picking a car, after watching
    the victims load cases in the back seat or trunk, and
    following them.

    Of course they can follow them out the front of
    the convention center also - basically, any area
    where they know dealers will be loading, and
    driving away.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
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    RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭

    Makes sense!!
    I concede.

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    KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FredWeinberg said:
    These guys know exactly where dealers
    LEAVE the show - they know, by Saturday,
    where the dealers wheel or carry their
    material, usually out thru a back exit -
    and they know the one or two car exists
    from that area.

    If they haven't already identified a target
    in the show, they just have to pick a dealer
    driving out of that back parking lot, and following
    them.

    Not an insurance scam, not (usually) overheard
    conversations - simply picking a car, after watching
    the victims load cases in the back seat or trunk, and
    following them.

    Of course they can follow them out the front of
    the convention center also - basically, any area
    where they know dealers will be loading, and
    driving away.

    You've been living in SO CA too long & watching too many Hollywood & Mira-Max Films.

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    KollectorKingKollectorKing Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017 2:24PM

    I'm the easiest target.

    I used to take the metro (going through the hood, where bloods, crisps congregate) to the LB coin show. I wore t-shirt & shorts w/my pockets bulging w/slabs of cc dollars. No one bothered me.

    On the way home I'd be carrying $1,000s. No one gave me a 2nd look.

    One time I sold 10 ms63 92-cc dollars to a cu member dealer & walked away w/a big check. That was fun!

    Me: I was a skinny Asian who looked like I just came out of a concentration camp.

    Bottom line: use common sense folks, don't dress like Shelby Unger did (king of cc) & you should be ok.

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    StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If anyone sees a coin list, post it here - have a show this Sunday about 2 hours north of there in Erie, PA. Will print the list and hand out to the other dealers to keep an eye out.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
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    RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,111 ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe include a print out of the @FredWeinberg post. :)

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    DBSTrader2DBSTrader2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭✭

    My first reaction is "that was some expensive dinner!" But it also got me to thinking.... maybe coin show sponsors should offer "take-home" meals for the road to their dealers, much like hotels with free breakfasts offer "to go" bags as an alternative. They would probably be appreciated by the dealers, and a nice gesture of both goodwill & concern about their participants' safety..........

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    hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Having grown up and worked in some very shady places, these things can happen to anyone at any time but I agree you need to take preventative measures. My grandfather drove truck in the garment district in NYC and pounded into our heads how not to get robbed in the darkest corners of the city. To this day, I still follow his advice and wisdom and people think I am nuts. I also realize that no matter how much I try to prevent this, I could just end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    I also feel horrible every time I read one of these stories.

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