@ReggieCleveland said:
Wait, what are we talking about? Are we talking about the sports card market or the future of PSA as a company? I'm not sure where Pokemon fits into the sports card market conversation.
Graded trading cards.
When did we move from the sports card market to graded trading cards? I missed that.
Both PSA and BGS grade various genres of trading cards. Both want your submissions regardless of the image on the front. PSA grades 9 out of 10 cards submitted to third party graders. Revenue is revenue. My position has always been the same. In 2010 when I decided Wrestling cards needed to be graded I did a lot of research in advance of choosing who to send my cards to and start my venture. I searched completed sales of sports cards and looked at loads of non sport sets and determined the right path was PSA. The most expensive cards in the world were graded by them and they were the clear leader when reviewing EBay listings. Obviously my choice paid off handsomely. You can't break down grading firms by sport or genre. At the end of the day all that matters is who is grading more and this translates into greater demand for cards in those holders.
Why would you take bulk submitters out of the equation? The cards end up in collectors hands eventually. And it's not like bgs doesn't have bulk submitters.
@ReggieCleveland said:
Wait, what are we talking about? Are we talking about the sports card market or the future of PSA as a company? I'm not sure where Pokemon fits into the sports card market conversation.
Graded trading cards.
When did we move from the sports card market to graded trading cards? I missed that.
Both PSA and BGS grade various genres of trading cards. Both want your submissions regardless of the image on the front. PSA grades 9 out of 10 cards submitted to third party graders. Revenue is revenue. My position has always been the same. In 2010 when I decided Wrestling cards needed to be graded I did a lot of research in advance of choosing who to send my cards to and start my venture. I searched completed sales of sports cards and looked at loads of non sport sets and determined the right path was PSA. The most expensive cards in the world were graded by them and they were the clear leader when reviewing EBay listings. Obviously my choice paid off handsomely. You can't break down grading firms by sport or genre. At the end of the day all that matters is who is grading more and this translates into greater demand for cards in those holders.
You need to become a lawyer.
Perhaps one day. I have considered it as a second career.
I guess when I responded to your quote "Sports collectibles are a dumpster fire of an investment.", I wasn't fairly representing sports cards. Obviously wrestling is fake sport so that doesn't count even though the performance of the cards have been quite strong.
What I should have pointed to is boxing with that being widely considered a real sport. Back in 2010 when I got much more serious about wrestling cards I decided I needed to branch out and look for other opportunities. Mike Tyson came to mind and I aggressively pursued his cards. I spent a lot of time researching his offerings and decided that the 1986 Panini Italian Super Sport was going to be a great card and bought as many as I could. Thankfully it turned out to be a good move. The modern boxing market has moved up considerably. Tyson, Pacquiao, and Mayweather rookie cards have been very strong. Just recently a 1948 Leaf Graziano brought $72,000.
There are a multitude of ways to profit from collectibles if that is the goal and certified collectibles can certainly be good investments. We are deep in a bull market where so much of the low hanging fruit has been grabbed. There are plenty of people like me who bought a lot of cards at much lower prices so on paper they look like good investments but for those buying at elevated levels they could prove to be poor investments.
Just recently a 1948 Leaf Graziano brought $72,000.
Dream card.
Joe
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
Doing a search for Pokemon on EBAY in the collectible card games category PSA has 20,398 results and BGS has 4,224 so this dominance isn't part of the EBAY results from earlier but is worth noting.
but as I mentioned before
take away the large bulk submitters
leave only the true collectors
how would the numbers look ?
I think it would be more comparable
I don't see where this point makes any sense. Why would you take away the large bulk submitters? Why would true collectors matter? It is a numbers deal, and if the large bulk guys suddenly did BGS cards do you then discount the BGS numbers and not consider them valid?
There is a reason they have a saying called the 80/20 rule in business
but as I mentioned before
take away the large bulk submitters
leave only the true collectors
how would the numbers look ?
I think it would be more comparable
I don't see where this point makes any sense. Why would you take away the large bulk submitters? Why would true collectors matter? It is a numbers deal, and if the large bulk guys suddenly did BGS cards do you then discount the BGS numbers and not consider them valid?
There is a reason they have a saying called the 80/20 rule in business
No one does bulk bgs submissions because they take 6+ months to get back. I submitted a 110 card bulk sub to them in April of 2017...here we are in Nov and nothing back. Yay.
Either way....this who argument over market share seems pointless...drummed by a new join who did not even offer an introduction. Just read the CU form 10K...it is all right there.
@SpinFadeSplash23 said:
I know that this is titled "Sports Card Market Overall" but my feeling is that Magic the Gathering and Pokemon high-end cards will outperform similarly priced sports cards over the next 5-7 years.
Curious why you think that @SpinFadeSplash23? Are you involved in either one?
I reason I mentioned removing the bulk submitters from the equation, and just leave the numbers from the true collectors is as follows. We've all seen this hobby crash when investors poured in with big money and huge amounts of products. It got saturated & it crashed. I'm worried 30,000,000 and add another 10,000,000 graded "items" and no signs of slowing, might be a little much & concerning
Ebay is sitting on a ton of product that should probably never have been graded.
Take it as you want to take it. But I don't think the hobby needed for these bulk submitters to graded $2.00 cards, and turn them around for $40.00, when we were content at that time on paying $2.00
And yes, grading of Pokémon and Magic whatever, I don't get that. I get it's about making money, but other than that, I don't get it. Yes, dealers make money selling it, but adults are buying this ???
I've read earlier where someone things this stuff will eclipse some sports cards.
Maybe so, and then people should start thinking of their Tulip economy
I would recommend doing a little research on those sets and seeing the explosive growth in prices and rabid collector base before anyone knocks them. The Black Lotus is probably the best performing trading card in the last five years. Perhaps the Pokémon Chizzard Holo is right there with it.
@ReggieCleveland said:
Wait, what are we talking about? Are we talking about the sports card market or the future of PSA as a company? I'm not sure where Pokemon fits into the sports card market conversation.
Graded trading cards.
When did we move from the sports card market to graded trading cards? I missed that.
Both PSA and BGS grade various genres of trading cards. Both want your submissions regardless of the image on the front. PSA grades 9 out of 10 cards submitted to third party graders. Revenue is revenue. My position has always been the same. In 2010 when I decided Wrestling cards needed to be graded I did a lot of research in advance of choosing who to send my cards to and start my venture. I searched completed sales of sports cards and looked at loads of non sport sets and determined the right path was PSA. The most expensive cards in the world were graded by them and they were the clear leader when reviewing EBay listings. Obviously my choice paid off handsomely. You can't break down grading firms by sport or genre. At the end of the day all that matters is who is grading more and this translates into greater demand for cards in those holders.
You need to become a lawyer.
Perhaps one day. I have considered it as a second career.
I guess when I responded to your quote "Sports collectibles are a dumpster fire of an investment.", I wasn't fairly representing sports cards. Obviously wrestling is fake sport so that doesn't count even though the performance of the cards have been quite strong.
What I should have pointed to is boxing with that being widely considered a real sport. Back in 2010 when I got much more serious about wrestling cards I decided I needed to branch out and look for other opportunities. Mike Tyson came to mind and I aggressively pursued his cards. I spent a lot of time researching his offerings and decided that the 1986 Panini Italian Super Sport was going to be a great card and bought as many as I could. Thankfully it turned out to be a good move. The modern boxing market has moved up considerably. Tyson, Pacquiao, and Mayweather rookie cards have been very strong. Just recently a 1948 Leaf Graziano brought $72,000.
There are a multitude of ways to profit from collectibles if that is the goal and certified collectibles can certainly be good investments. We are deep in a bull market where so much of the low hanging fruit has been grabbed. There are plenty of people like me who bought a lot of cards at much lower prices so on paper they look like good investments but for those buying at elevated levels they could prove to be poor investments.
I'm somewhat familiar with boxing cards.
In retrospect, anyone can cherry pick any card they'd like and say "see? I totally knew that was going to go up. Look how smart I am." Here's what I never see on this board or any other sportscard message board:
"I made a killing in sportscards and now I'm going to retire early."
There's certainly tons of people that made a killing in the financial world that then go on to play in sportscards because that's what they enjoy. Those people also hate to lose money so they approach it in much the same way and probably turn a profit in the end. But there's a huge disconnect between turning a profit in sportscards and investing in sportscards. I'm very conscious of value and future possibilities. Not because I want to be able to flip my cards for a profit but because I want to be able to buy the cards I want before they become unaffordable to me.
But for all the people that are so smart and so prescient, they're still here, they're still operating within a budget, they're still drinking out of a glass and not a coconut.
@Dpeck100 said:
I would recommend doing a little research on those sets and seeing the explosive growth in prices and rabid collector base before anyone knocks them. The Black Lotus is probably the best performing trading card in the last five years. Perhaps the Pokémon Chizzard Holo is right there with it.
sorry, have no clue as to the things you mentioned
maybe I should
but I dont
@Dpeck100 said:
I would recommend doing a little research on those sets and seeing the explosive growth in prices and rabid collector base before anyone knocks them. The Black Lotus is probably the best performing trading card in the last five years. Perhaps the Pokémon Chizzard Holo is right there with it.
sorry, have no clue as to the things you mentioned
maybe I should
but I dont
It seems like every few months a new member shows up with BGS in their name and trolls the hell out of the board and all of you fall for it every single time. When will you all learn?
@ReggieCleveland said:
Wait, what are we talking about? Are we talking about the sports card market or the future of PSA as a company? I'm not sure where Pokemon fits into the sports card market conversation.
Graded trading cards.
When did we move from the sports card market to graded trading cards? I missed that.
Both PSA and BGS grade various genres of trading cards. Both want your submissions regardless of the image on the front. PSA grades 9 out of 10 cards submitted to third party graders. Revenue is revenue. My position has always been the same. In 2010 when I decided Wrestling cards needed to be graded I did a lot of research in advance of choosing who to send my cards to and start my venture. I searched completed sales of sports cards and looked at loads of non sport sets and determined the right path was PSA. The most expensive cards in the world were graded by them and they were the clear leader when reviewing EBay listings. Obviously my choice paid off handsomely. You can't break down grading firms by sport or genre. At the end of the day all that matters is who is grading more and this translates into greater demand for cards in those holders.
You need to become a lawyer.
Perhaps one day. I have considered it as a second career.
I guess when I responded to your quote "Sports collectibles are a dumpster fire of an investment.", I wasn't fairly representing sports cards. Obviously wrestling is fake sport so that doesn't count even though the performance of the cards have been quite strong.
What I should have pointed to is boxing with that being widely considered a real sport. Back in 2010 when I got much more serious about wrestling cards I decided I needed to branch out and look for other opportunities. Mike Tyson came to mind and I aggressively pursued his cards. I spent a lot of time researching his offerings and decided that the 1986 Panini Italian Super Sport was going to be a great card and bought as many as I could. Thankfully it turned out to be a good move. The modern boxing market has moved up considerably. Tyson, Pacquiao, and Mayweather rookie cards have been very strong. Just recently a 1948 Leaf Graziano brought $72,000.
There are a multitude of ways to profit from collectibles if that is the goal and certified collectibles can certainly be good investments. We are deep in a bull market where so much of the low hanging fruit has been grabbed. There are plenty of people like me who bought a lot of cards at much lower prices so on paper they look like good investments but for those buying at elevated levels they could prove to be poor investments.
I'm somewhat familiar with boxing cards.
In retrospect, anyone can cherry pick any card they'd like and say "see? I totally knew that was going to go up. Look how smart I am." Here's what I never see on this board or any other sportscard message board:
"I made a killing in sportscards and now I'm going to retire early."
There's certainly tons of people that made a killing in the financial world that then go on to play in sportscards because that's what they enjoy. Those people also hate to lose money so they approach it in much the same way and probably turn a profit in the end. But there's a huge disconnect between turning a profit in sportscards and investing in sportscards. I'm very conscious of value and future possibilities. Not because I want to be able to flip my cards for a profit but because I want to be able to buy the cards I want before they become unaffordable to me.
But for all the people that are so smart and so prescient, they're still here, they're still operating within a budget, they're still drinking out of a glass and not a coconut.
It takes money to make money. There are only a handful of examples where people have made enough money to retire from cards that is true.
I guess I look at it not from a get rich scenario but on a per unit of money invested basis. Because the market for cards is not really very efficient there are massive arbitrage opportunities where someone can purchase cards and be money ahead right out of the gate. Card grading just accelerates that further. The only other thing that I have encountered where you can turn a small amount of money into a lot more are options and those have much greater risk and can go to zero. This is what attracted me to cards once I really got started and why I spent so much time and energy tracking them down. Is buying a card for $122 and it going to $2,500 or more going to change my life? Of course not but there are much worse things you can do with money and in the mean time you get to enjoy having it in your possession and not just seeing it on a computer screen.
@SpinFadeSplash23 said:
I know that this is titled "Sports Card Market Overall" but my feeling is that Magic the Gathering and Pokemon high-end cards will outperform similarly priced sports cards over the next 5-7 years
When I first read this I thought he was joking but if you think about it millennials grew up playing Pokémon instead of collecting sports cards. I don't know about outperforming but definitely will be collected more than now.
@ReggieCleveland said:
It seems like every few months a new member shows up with BGS in their name and trolls the hell out of the board and all of you fall for it every single time. When will you all learn?
I was curious about his user name amd the fact that he happens to be carrying g the BGS banner on a PSA board.
Could it be Dr. James Beckett himself? The head grader at BGS? Or someone that owns nothing but BGS graded cards and is bitter about PSA’s dominance?
.
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
@Jimmy_Commonpants said:
BGS claims they have graded more cards over the past five years than PSA, so I don't know how PSA could claim they grade 90% of the cards. 50% to 60%, sure. Maybe 70%. Nowhere near 90%. I went to a show back in the summer and there were as many or more SGC slabs than PSA, which threw me for a loop. I started wondering if its because SGC is out of Florida too. Anyway....
I would love to see where BGS says they have graded more cards than any other third party grader over the past five years. That is beyond laughable.
In 2013 I went to the National in Chicago and the PSA booth was jammed packed. The Beckett booth had people coming and going with no line and the SGC table was two guys twiddling their thumbs.
CLCT is a publicly traded company. They can't put out BS market share stats.
I looked back at the literature last night and I see now that I was confused/mis-remembered. The claim is from 2010 to 2015, they graded more "Baseball Items" than PSA. The numbers are like 196,000 BGS to 95,000 for PSA. Its in their "Guide to Grading" that they send with the annual price guide books if you buy them.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
"PSA grades 9 out of 10 cards submitted to third party graders. "
This is really an argument that doesn't matter, but I just want to point out the math here. PSA claims they have graded 29,220,400 items as of today. If that is 90%, then that would mean 32,467,111 cards have been graded by any company, leaving the other grading companies only about 3.2 million graded items. I'm pretty sure BGS and SGC have graded well more than 3.2 million items combined.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
@Jimmy_Commonpants said:
BGS claims they have graded more cards over the past five years than PSA, so I don't know how PSA could claim they grade 90% of the cards. 50% to 60%, sure. Maybe 70%. Nowhere near 90%. I went to a show back in the summer and there were as many or more SGC slabs than PSA, which threw me for a loop. I started wondering if its because SGC is out of Florida too. Anyway....
I would love to see where BGS says they have graded more cards than any other third party grader over the past five years. That is beyond laughable.
In 2013 I went to the National in Chicago and the PSA booth was jammed packed. The Beckett booth had people coming and going with no line and the SGC table was two guys twiddling their thumbs.
CLCT is a publicly traded company. They can't put out BS market share stats.
I looked back at the literature last night and I see now that I was confused/mis-remembered. The claim is from 2010 to 2015, they graded more "Baseball Items" than PSA. The numbers are like 196,000 BGS to 95,000 for PSA. Its in their "Guide to Grading" that they send with the annual price guide books if you buy them.
Perhaps they are referencing only shiny auto cards. PSA has been grading over a million cards a year since 2010 and that number is north of 1.6 million now. With baseball being the most heavily collected genre of trading cards their data can't reflect total baseball cards graded. I have read baseball cards account for 60% of the card market so I have to think a similar percentage applies to the breakdown of cards graded by PSA.
These conversations are always entertaining because while some see it as trolling and that may be true, there are quite a few collectors that are in the dark on how dominate PSA is and so in many cases they are just not really informed.
"PSA grades 9 out of 10 cards submitted to third party graders. "
This is really an argument that doesn't matter, but I just want to point out the math here. PSA claims they have graded 29,220,400 items as of today. If that is 90%, then that would mean 32,467,111 cards have been graded by any company, leaving the other grading companies only about 3.2 million graded items. I'm pretty sure BGS and SGC have graded well more than 3.2 million items combined.
Come on dude use your brain. Read the statements about the market share shift in the late 90s'. Beckett had caught PSA in the 90's and then collapsed. The statement applies to today.
SGC used to have a decent share of the market too and now account for less than 2% of cards being graded.
@SpinFadeSplash23 said:
I know that this is titled "Sports Card Market Overall" but my feeling is that Magic the Gathering and Pokemon high-end cards will outperform similarly priced sports cards over the next 5-7 years.
Curious why you think that @SpinFadeSplash23? Are you involved in either one?
Kind regards,
George
Well George, my answer touches on a lot of different angles and thoughts but I'll try to keep it simple.
1) Most of us can agree that what drives collectors is some type of connection to the collectible, what that collectible represents, the feeling that collectible invokes, or what have you. A recent study showed that most people feel that the years of their youth are the best times in the country's history (https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2017/oct/31/the-reminiscence-bump-why-americas-greatest-year-was-probably-when-you-were-young). My point is that we have a skewed sense of reality with a bias towards our youth. And eventually, those youth grow up to have families, high paying jobs and disposable income.
2) This generation was shaped and molded by the video game/gaming/anime/cartoon push in our entertainment history. For example, if I dressed up as a Pokemon for Halloween at 5, my parents were buying the videos game by 7, then I was playing the card game from age 10, then attending Comic-Cons and Cosplay events now that I have more money. It is a progressive growth. And most of all, the social aspect tied in the gaming with the cherishment of physical cards, what they represent, is key. Add on the boom in video game personalities on Twitch and Youtube, as well as ESPN legitimizing E-Sports as an accepted news topic, one can possibly see a shift in "why" people collect.
3) While the PSA forums and other card collecting forums are active, the social media, forums and YouTube accounts for Pokemon and MTG are amazing. Even the MTG and Pokemon investing YouTube channels have large followings, which I can not say so much for sports cards. They have rabid obsession that bleeds over in Comic-Cons, Cosplay and an entire other genre of expression and art form.
4) So, what is the point SpinFadeSplash23? IMO, when you ask the question, "Why do we collect?", it impacts the investment portion of the equation. I collect Michael Jordan because I was part of the Nike marketing machine that presented Jordan as part Greek God and part myth. As I get older, I intentionally try to cherish my youth and those raw feelings of watching Michael Jordan play, camping shopping malls to buy Air Jordans with my friends, and all the other nerdiness of collecting. That "feeling" of why we collect and how it ties into investment/value is why I feel this will drive the value of Pokemon and MTG playing cards, as well as vintage video games, over the next 5-7 years, at a pace greater than sports cards.
Disclosure: I have been buying sub-$1000 PSA 10 MTG and Pokemon cards over the last two years and relisting them for double the price. As of today, 15.5% of my "buys" have sold at double. And I will continue to keep buying when I see value.
Joe
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
That's a great post, SFS23. In a way, the inherent nature of collectibles precludes investment. Collectibles are a visceral experience while investing should be completely emotionless.
Bravo for Post Of The Thread to date @SpinFadeSplash23, although there are some worthy contenders elsewhere. Thanks for the explanation. I started VDBCoins.com because in my youth, like many of a certain age, I started filling up blue Whitman folders with Lincoln Wheat cents. I was in junior high in Dallas when President Kennedy was assassinated there, and since I had such respect for him as a man (the knowledge of his apparently many peccadilloes was still in the future) and as a President, I about a decade ago began a fine Registry Set of Kennedy half dollars, culminating in my sale of a 1964 SMS Kennedy half through Heritage Auctions for $47,000, still to my knowledge the highest price ever achieved at auction for a Kennedy half dollar. (There were many other nice coins, though!)
And I remember going into the bank on Corinth Street in South Oak Cliff with my Dad and buying wonderful, shiny Morgan dollars fresh from Mint bags for face value around 1962! Again, many collectors have similar experiences to draw on from their youth. While I should have held onto those Morgan dollars and the many other rare coins I managed to obtain as a kid, I was always interested in how much I could get for them ... so I became a dealer quite young.
So yes, there are many associations with my youth in my collecting of later decades. And @ReggieCleveland although I have been a pretty successful investor in the stock market as well, I would not say that investing is emotionless. Should be, yes. Is, definitely not, not for humans, anyway. I am sure, again like many others, that I tend to come back to investments that have done well in the past in anticipation of further gains in the future. I do get a charge out of locking in a profit on something, but perhaps more than I should ... one can drink too often from the same trough, I have learned the hard way.
Great thread! Don't grieve if it has expanded beyond sports cards ... we are all collectors, or at least buyers and sellers for one reason or another.
Yes a great thread indeed. It seems so many people get down right angry if you use the word investor and collector in the same sentence. I think so many people are both and there is nothing wrong with that. I love the 75 Brett and have 7 that are psa 8.5 or 9. I love the card first and foremost. The investment side is seconday. One of the major AH's had a lot of 64 mike trout psa 10's of his 2011 Topps Update a few years ago. I love Trout and bought them for about $45-50 each. It was a good investment but I bought them because I was a collector first
just giving you an outsiders view. from the sidelines, it seems a majority of your threads are titled "which is the better investment?".
so do you like the bretts and trouts because they were inherently good investments or did you choice of investment just happen to be the popular vote on a thread and ended up being the bretts and trouts of the world?
ive got no issues w you or the investment side of cards. and theres absolutely no problem w folks collecting as an investment.
i just dont like it when people try to act like they arent. if someones primary focus in graded cards is investment, they need hold there head high and affirm it, not put on a facade. (not saying thats what your doing).
but we are all obviously here bc we like cards...
eta: and i dont mind when folks use the word investment. especially in hindsight. but coming outta the gate and considering there are fairly better odds on other investment vehicles.
Oh yes I have put up a few threads like that for sure...... I love cards and collect them so as you said I wouldn't be on this board if I didn't. I own up to everything about this. I have tens of thousands of cards (like millions of us) that aren't worth the boxes they are in but I still love them. The Vince colemans, Matt Nokes , Gregg jefferies of the world. I love the entire hobby for sure and yes I have bought many cards as an investment but have also passed on so many investment opportunities because I don't like that players brand/year of cards. I just don't see the issue with this that so many have on this board, that's all. The word investment is seen as a dirty word by too many in the card world. Others say there are far better investments out there and I am sure not doubting that. The question is are those fun... probably not
I don't have a problem with people collecting for investment. I have a problem with people using message boards to try to get others to buy into what they're toting. I have a problem with hype. I have a problem with false claims. I have a problem with people pumping up their "investments" and then unloading them on the very people they pumped them to.
I think 1980 baseball is one of the best sets ever produced. It's also considered the last vintage set. Before donruss and fleer came on board. You can never go wrong with a nice Henderson rookie.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Comments
You need to become a lawyer.
Why would you take bulk submitters out of the equation? The cards end up in collectors hands eventually. And it's not like bgs doesn't have bulk submitters.
Perhaps one day. I have considered it as a second career.
I guess when I responded to your quote "Sports collectibles are a dumpster fire of an investment.", I wasn't fairly representing sports cards. Obviously wrestling is fake sport so that doesn't count even though the performance of the cards have been quite strong.
What I should have pointed to is boxing with that being widely considered a real sport. Back in 2010 when I got much more serious about wrestling cards I decided I needed to branch out and look for other opportunities. Mike Tyson came to mind and I aggressively pursued his cards. I spent a lot of time researching his offerings and decided that the 1986 Panini Italian Super Sport was going to be a great card and bought as many as I could. Thankfully it turned out to be a good move. The modern boxing market has moved up considerably. Tyson, Pacquiao, and Mayweather rookie cards have been very strong. Just recently a 1948 Leaf Graziano brought $72,000.
There are a multitude of ways to profit from collectibles if that is the goal and certified collectibles can certainly be good investments. We are deep in a bull market where so much of the low hanging fruit has been grabbed. There are plenty of people like me who bought a lot of cards at much lower prices so on paper they look like good investments but for those buying at elevated levels they could prove to be poor investments.
Just recently a 1948 Leaf Graziano brought $72,000.
Dream card.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
I think this is a no lose investment card. It is a holy grail card and prices trend higher over time.
Doing a search for Pokemon on EBAY in the collectible card games category PSA has 20,398 results and BGS has 4,224 so this dominance isn't part of the EBAY results from earlier but is worth noting.
I don't see where this point makes any sense. Why would you take away the large bulk submitters? Why would true collectors matter? It is a numbers deal, and if the large bulk guys suddenly did BGS cards do you then discount the BGS numbers and not consider them valid?
There is a reason they have a saying called the 80/20 rule in business
No one does bulk bgs submissions because they take 6+ months to get back. I submitted a 110 card bulk sub to them in April of 2017...here we are in Nov and nothing back. Yay.
Either way....this who argument over market share seems pointless...drummed by a new join who did not even offer an introduction. Just read the CU form 10K...it is all right there.
Curious why you think that @SpinFadeSplash23? Are you involved in either one?
Kind regards,
George
I reason I mentioned removing the bulk submitters from the equation, and just leave the numbers from the true collectors is as follows. We've all seen this hobby crash when investors poured in with big money and huge amounts of products. It got saturated & it crashed. I'm worried 30,000,000 and add another 10,000,000 graded "items" and no signs of slowing, might be a little much & concerning
Ebay is sitting on a ton of product that should probably never have been graded.
Take it as you want to take it. But I don't think the hobby needed for these bulk submitters to graded $2.00 cards, and turn them around for $40.00, when we were content at that time on paying $2.00
And yes, grading of Pokémon and Magic whatever, I don't get that. I get it's about making money, but other than that, I don't get it. Yes, dealers make money selling it, but adults are buying this ???
I've read earlier where someone things this stuff will eclipse some sports cards.
Maybe so, and then people should start thinking of their Tulip economy
Tell you how some things have changed since 2000
back then ... "hey Bob, what do you have there?" "It's a graded Jordan Rookie!" "Wow!"
Now ... "hey Bob, what do you have there?" "It's a graded tommy Brookens 1988 Topps ... POP 1 !!!!!!!" "Wow!!!!!!!!"
I would recommend doing a little research on those sets and seeing the explosive growth in prices and rabid collector base before anyone knocks them. The Black Lotus is probably the best performing trading card in the last five years. Perhaps the Pokémon Chizzard Holo is right there with it.
I'm somewhat familiar with boxing cards.
In retrospect, anyone can cherry pick any card they'd like and say "see? I totally knew that was going to go up. Look how smart I am." Here's what I never see on this board or any other sportscard message board:
"I made a killing in sportscards and now I'm going to retire early."
There's certainly tons of people that made a killing in the financial world that then go on to play in sportscards because that's what they enjoy. Those people also hate to lose money so they approach it in much the same way and probably turn a profit in the end. But there's a huge disconnect between turning a profit in sportscards and investing in sportscards. I'm very conscious of value and future possibilities. Not because I want to be able to flip my cards for a profit but because I want to be able to buy the cards I want before they become unaffordable to me.
But for all the people that are so smart and so prescient, they're still here, they're still operating within a budget, they're still drinking out of a glass and not a coconut.
sorry, have no clue as to the things you mentioned
maybe I should
but I dont
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=32806&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&_nkw=magic+the+gathering&_sop=16
I don't collect them but there is huge interest in them and big prices paid for graded copies. Over 500,000 EBAY listings.
Huge price for this card.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-Pokemon-Game-1st-Edition-Holo-Charizard-4-BGS-10-PRISTINE-PWCC/401386806307?epid=19003650099&hash=item5d74849c23:g:yz8AAOSwT-lZl0KT
It seems like every few months a new member shows up with BGS in their name and trolls the hell out of the board and all of you fall for it every single time. When will you all learn?
It takes money to make money. There are only a handful of examples where people have made enough money to retire from cards that is true.
I guess I look at it not from a get rich scenario but on a per unit of money invested basis. Because the market for cards is not really very efficient there are massive arbitrage opportunities where someone can purchase cards and be money ahead right out of the gate. Card grading just accelerates that further. The only other thing that I have encountered where you can turn a small amount of money into a lot more are options and those have much greater risk and can go to zero. This is what attracted me to cards once I really got started and why I spent so much time and energy tracking them down. Is buying a card for $122 and it going to $2,500 or more going to change my life? Of course not but there are much worse things you can do with money and in the mean time you get to enjoy having it in your possession and not just seeing it on a computer screen.
H
When I first read this I thought he was joking but if you think about it millennials grew up playing Pokémon instead of collecting sports cards. I don't know about outperforming but definitely will be collected more than now.
I was curious about his user name amd the fact that he happens to be carrying g the BGS banner on a PSA board.
Could it be Dr. James Beckett himself? The head grader at BGS? Or someone that owns nothing but BGS graded cards and is bitter about PSA’s dominance?
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TheClockworkAngelCollection
I looked back at the literature last night and I see now that I was confused/mis-remembered. The claim is from 2010 to 2015, they graded more "Baseball Items" than PSA. The numbers are like 196,000 BGS to 95,000 for PSA. Its in their "Guide to Grading" that they send with the annual price guide books if you buy them.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
"PSA grades 9 out of 10 cards submitted to third party graders. "
This is really an argument that doesn't matter, but I just want to point out the math here. PSA claims they have graded 29,220,400 items as of today. If that is 90%, then that would mean 32,467,111 cards have been graded by any company, leaving the other grading companies only about 3.2 million graded items. I'm pretty sure BGS and SGC have graded well more than 3.2 million items combined.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
Perhaps they are referencing only shiny auto cards. PSA has been grading over a million cards a year since 2010 and that number is north of 1.6 million now. With baseball being the most heavily collected genre of trading cards their data can't reflect total baseball cards graded. I have read baseball cards account for 60% of the card market so I have to think a similar percentage applies to the breakdown of cards graded by PSA.
These conversations are always entertaining because while some see it as trolling and that may be true, there are quite a few collectors that are in the dark on how dominate PSA is and so in many cases they are just not really informed.
Come on dude use your brain. Read the statements about the market share shift in the late 90s'. Beckett had caught PSA in the 90's and then collapsed. The statement applies to today.
SGC used to have a decent share of the market too and now account for less than 2% of cards being graded.
Well George, my answer touches on a lot of different angles and thoughts but I'll try to keep it simple.
1) Most of us can agree that what drives collectors is some type of connection to the collectible, what that collectible represents, the feeling that collectible invokes, or what have you. A recent study showed that most people feel that the years of their youth are the best times in the country's history (https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2017/oct/31/the-reminiscence-bump-why-americas-greatest-year-was-probably-when-you-were-young). My point is that we have a skewed sense of reality with a bias towards our youth. And eventually, those youth grow up to have families, high paying jobs and disposable income.
2) This generation was shaped and molded by the video game/gaming/anime/cartoon push in our entertainment history. For example, if I dressed up as a Pokemon for Halloween at 5, my parents were buying the videos game by 7, then I was playing the card game from age 10, then attending Comic-Cons and Cosplay events now that I have more money. It is a progressive growth. And most of all, the social aspect tied in the gaming with the cherishment of physical cards, what they represent, is key. Add on the boom in video game personalities on Twitch and Youtube, as well as ESPN legitimizing E-Sports as an accepted news topic, one can possibly see a shift in "why" people collect.
3) While the PSA forums and other card collecting forums are active, the social media, forums and YouTube accounts for Pokemon and MTG are amazing. Even the MTG and Pokemon investing YouTube channels have large followings, which I can not say so much for sports cards. They have rabid obsession that bleeds over in Comic-Cons, Cosplay and an entire other genre of expression and art form.
4) So, what is the point SpinFadeSplash23? IMO, when you ask the question, "Why do we collect?", it impacts the investment portion of the equation. I collect Michael Jordan because I was part of the Nike marketing machine that presented Jordan as part Greek God and part myth. As I get older, I intentionally try to cherish my youth and those raw feelings of watching Michael Jordan play, camping shopping malls to buy Air Jordans with my friends, and all the other nerdiness of collecting. That "feeling" of why we collect and how it ties into investment/value is why I feel this will drive the value of Pokemon and MTG playing cards, as well as vintage video games, over the next 5-7 years, at a pace greater than sports cards.
Disclosure: I have been buying sub-$1000 PSA 10 MTG and Pokemon cards over the last two years and relisting them for double the price. As of today, 15.5% of my "buys" have sold at double. And I will continue to keep buying when I see value.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
That's a great post, SFS23. In a way, the inherent nature of collectibles precludes investment. Collectibles are a visceral experience while investing should be completely emotionless.
the numbers would look exactly like you envision them to be...
completely biased, fabricated and absolutely non-factual.
lets just remove "electricity" from the equation as well. who would have the most holders out there then?
im gonna go w bccg.
Bravo for Post Of The Thread to date @SpinFadeSplash23, although there are some worthy contenders elsewhere. Thanks for the explanation. I started VDBCoins.com because in my youth, like many of a certain age, I started filling up blue Whitman folders with Lincoln Wheat cents. I was in junior high in Dallas when President Kennedy was assassinated there, and since I had such respect for him as a man (the knowledge of his apparently many peccadilloes was still in the future) and as a President, I about a decade ago began a fine Registry Set of Kennedy half dollars, culminating in my sale of a 1964 SMS Kennedy half through Heritage Auctions for $47,000, still to my knowledge the highest price ever achieved at auction for a Kennedy half dollar. (There were many other nice coins, though!)
And I remember going into the bank on Corinth Street in South Oak Cliff with my Dad and buying wonderful, shiny Morgan dollars fresh from Mint bags for face value around 1962! Again, many collectors have similar experiences to draw on from their youth. While I should have held onto those Morgan dollars and the many other rare coins I managed to obtain as a kid, I was always interested in how much I could get for them ... so I became a dealer quite young.
So yes, there are many associations with my youth in my collecting of later decades. And @ReggieCleveland although I have been a pretty successful investor in the stock market as well, I would not say that investing is emotionless. Should be, yes. Is, definitely not, not for humans, anyway. I am sure, again like many others, that I tend to come back to investments that have done well in the past in anticipation of further gains in the future. I do get a charge out of locking in a profit on something, but perhaps more than I should ... one can drink too often from the same trough, I have learned the hard way.
Great thread! Don't grieve if it has expanded beyond sports cards ... we are all collectors, or at least buyers and sellers for one reason or another.
Kind regards,
George
Yes a great thread indeed. It seems so many people get down right angry if you use the word investor and collector in the same sentence. I think so many people are both and there is nothing wrong with that. I love the 75 Brett and have 7 that are psa 8.5 or 9. I love the card first and foremost. The investment side is seconday. One of the major AH's had a lot of 64 mike trout psa 10's of his 2011 Topps Update a few years ago. I love Trout and bought them for about $45-50 each. It was a good investment but I bought them because I was a collector first
ed,
just giving you an outsiders view. from the sidelines, it seems a majority of your threads are titled "which is the better investment?".
so do you like the bretts and trouts because they were inherently good investments or did you choice of investment just happen to be the popular vote on a thread and ended up being the bretts and trouts of the world?
ive got no issues w you or the investment side of cards. and theres absolutely no problem w folks collecting as an investment.
i just dont like it when people try to act like they arent. if someones primary focus in graded cards is investment, they need hold there head high and affirm it, not put on a facade. (not saying thats what your doing).
but we are all obviously here bc we like cards...
eta: and i dont mind when folks use the word investment. especially in hindsight. but coming outta the gate and considering there are fairly better odds on other investment vehicles.
Oh yes I have put up a few threads like that for sure...... I love cards and collect them so as you said I wouldn't be on this board if I didn't. I own up to everything about this. I have tens of thousands of cards (like millions of us) that aren't worth the boxes they are in but I still love them. The Vince colemans, Matt Nokes , Gregg jefferies of the world. I love the entire hobby for sure and yes I have bought many cards as an investment but have also passed on so many investment opportunities because I don't like that players brand/year of cards. I just don't see the issue with this that so many have on this board, that's all. The word investment is seen as a dirty word by too many in the card world. Others say there are far better investments out there and I am sure not doubting that. The question is are those fun... probably not
I don't have a problem with people collecting for investment. I have a problem with people using message boards to try to get others to buy into what they're toting. I have a problem with hype. I have a problem with false claims. I have a problem with people pumping up their "investments" and then unloading them on the very people they pumped them to.
I think 1980 baseball is one of the best sets ever produced. It's also considered the last vintage set. Before donruss and fleer came on board. You can never go wrong with a nice Henderson rookie.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED