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1909 S Vdb

Good morning ladies and gentlemen!First time posting here and hoping to meet some folks that are lovers of numismatic like myself. I'm still fairly new (3 years) so I know I've quite a bit to learn!
I was also hoping someone may be able to help me out with the authenticity of this 1909 S VDB.It was won on Ebay.I have done some research and it appears to be from die type 4.The sarifs on the "S" are correct and the crossbar on the B looks to have the appropriate slant.But still being new I'd like to have to opions of more seasoned eyes!
I look forward to getting to know you all and thanks in advance!
All the best-Steve


Comments

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2017 5:49AM

    I have reservations about this piece. The curve of the "S" mint mark should the thicker below the top serif. According to Bill Fivaz, the middle line in the"B" on the reverse "must be diagonal, not horizontal."

    The 1909-S-VDB is the type of coin that I would never buy raw over the Internet based upon the seller's photos. There are simply too many counterfeits. I did buy them raw when I was a dealer, but I never sold them raw. I always got them certified. Why risk the questions as a dealer? Why take the chance as a buyer? This is a coin that really requires certification.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,732 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's easy to write "it looks off", but in this case it looks off. Are these the seller's images? If so, I wonder why someone would show the coin at such an angle instead of a straight shot. I've often thought that folks who have something to hide are more likely to use images that are somewhat oddly produced. Of course, the angle of the images might fool the eye into thinking something is amiss when that is not the case. Regardless, this is such a common coin that is routinely available in slabs and also wildly produced as a counterfeit so it makes me pause to read this thread.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    stashstash Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭

    Your coin is coneca RPM-002 .
    Nice find .
    http://varietyvista.com/02a LC RPMs Vol 1/1909SRPM002.htm

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,309 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even were this not a counterfeit, the scratches on the cheek and the awful scar on Lincoln's nose, plus the stain on Lincoln's back encompassing the Y in Liberty would be enough to put me off from buying such an iconic coin. When you add in the counterfeit possibility stay away from such an investment. Many available that have been certified. My opinion. I wish you great luck and envy the future you have in the hobby. Great advice here and if you absorb it you will be a much better collector for it.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SteveBell......Welcome aboard. Purchasing raw coins on ebay can be risky.... as you can see, there are varying opinions on this one. I recommend you submit it to our hosts. Cheers, RickO

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2017 8:17AM

    In addition to what has been said above, the right obverse fields look suspect. Pitted and possibly tooled.

    I'd return this and look for a deal on a certified S-VDB.
    Lance.


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    stashstash Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2017 9:00AM

    @lkeigwin said:
    In addition to what has been said above, the right obverse fields look suspect. Pitted and possibly tooled.

    I'd return this and look for a deal on a certified S-VDB.
    Lance.

    It's a very late die stage, for RPM-002 . The crack on the reverse between the lower right wheat and the rim, doesn't start til stage D ........

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    SteveBellSteveBell Posts: 58 ✭✭✭

    Gentlemen I appreciate the input and the warm welcome.I will be returning this as it was sold as Brilliant Uncirculated. It obviously is not considering ole Abe looks like he fought in the war.Even if it was authentic;it's not the high grade MS that I'm looking for.
    Thanks again for all the input!
    All the best!-Steve

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    BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2017 5:48PM




    These are the 4 mintmark positions for the 09-S VDB. Hope this helps. It's genuine. Looks like a late stage die 4. It has the die crack from the right feather to the rim. It is definitely circulated, I'd say around AU-50-53.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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    stashstash Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭

    @SteveBell said:
    Gentlemen I appreciate the input and the warm welcome.I will be returning this as it was sold as Brilliant Uncirculated. It obviously is not considering ole Abe looks like he fought in the war.Even if it was authentic;it's not the high grade MS that I'm looking for.
    Thanks again for all the input!
    All the best!-Steve

    Send me an email . If the price is right, I'd be interested in it ...

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    Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is this the auction?

    -

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    SteveBellSteveBell Posts: 58 ✭✭✭

    That's it!

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    gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wise move.

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All of the people who have posted are more knowledgeable than me on this so I defer to all their opinions, but there is no way I would ever bid on a supposedly BU 1909SVDB cent on eBay. There is no valid reason that coin is not in a slab unless there is something wrong with it. I love looking for bargains and unattributed rarities, but the seller knew what this was and sold it raw. That is a huge red flag. The question for me would not be "is there something wrong with it", but rather, "what is wrong with it".

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    Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SteveBell said:
    That's it!

    A couple of lessons:

    1- Seller has other newly graded coins for sale, why would he not have the most valuable coin he has listed graded? (This usually indicates there are problems with the coin or it's fake.)

    2- Even though I can't prove it, it looks like some shill bidding was going on.

    3- You paid in the ballpark of where they are selling for, ALREADY GRADED, in MS63 or MS64.

    -

    Cheers and welcome!

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    SteveBellSteveBell Posts: 58 ✭✭✭

    The seller has already agreed to a return.Definitely learned a few lessons here!I don't think I will be bidding on upgraded key dates in the future!
    I really appreciate everyone opinions and advice!

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    Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stash said:

    @SteveBell said:
    Gentlemen I appreciate the input and the warm welcome.I will be returning this as it was sold as Brilliant Uncirculated. It obviously is not considering ole Abe looks like he fought in the war.Even if it was authentic;it's not the high grade MS that I'm looking for.
    Thanks again for all the input!
    All the best!-Steve

    Send me an email . If the price is right, I'd be interested in it ...

    $1358.33. Still interested? :)

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    stashstash Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @stash said:

    @SteveBell said:
    Gentlemen I appreciate the input and the warm welcome.I will be returning this as it was sold as Brilliant Uncirculated. It obviously is not considering ole Abe looks like he fought in the war.Even if it was authentic;it's not the high grade MS that I'm looking for.
    Thanks again for all the input!
    All the best!-Steve

    Send me an email . If the price is right, I'd be interested in it ...

    $1358.33. Still interested? :)

    to risky even if it hit 64 ..

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    7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I bought one raw at auction & paid about 1350 also, but happy ending in that the coin was totally original & not messed with grading MS64RB with hosts.So they can be found, but be careful as has been said.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1909-S VDB should always be purchased already slabbed unless you are a true expert on the type.

    For most collectors and many dealers as well, the age of buying expensive, raw coins is over.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stash said:
    Your coin is coneca RPM-002 .
    Nice find .
    http://varietyvista.com/02a LC RPMs Vol 1/1909SRPM002.htm

    You sure?

    Larry

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    mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    V.D.B. looks off to me.Captain Henway is the resident expert on S VDB's.Maybe he has an opinion on this piece.

    I like the #4 die with that low and far right 's'.If I was in the market for one of these I would seek out an example from die#4.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

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    CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    For most collectors and many dealers as well, the age of buying expensive, raw coins is over.

    This isn't entirely true. EAC not withstanding

    The more you VAM..
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    stashstash Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭

    @ldhair said:

    @stash said:
    Your coin is coneca RPM-002 .
    Nice find .
    http://varietyvista.com/02a LC RPMs Vol 1/1909SRPM002.htm

    You sure?

    Positive .............

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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stash said:

    @ldhair said:

    @stash said:
    Your coin is coneca RPM-002 .
    Nice find .
    http://varietyvista.com/02a LC RPMs Vol 1/1909SRPM002.htm

    You sure?

    Positive .............

    I'm not smart enough to understand. The link goes to the 09-S not the VDB S.

    Larry

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    BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2017 8:49AM

    Genuine S-V.D.B. Initials. Note how the initials are slightly left of center.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon

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