Is this really an error?

AUandAG

Do you think that PCGS would say this is enough of a rotation?
bob

ModCrewman

I'm not sure what "within tolerance" would be for rotation, but that one doesn't excite me. Your mileage may vary.

grip

I think the allowance is 15deg.

FredWeinberg

US Mint Tolerance is 27 degrees.

That's not 27 degrees.

The vast majority of collectors want their
Rotated Reverse coins to be a MINIMUM
of 45 degrees or more, imo.

I assume that the person who submitted this
coin (and many others) to NGC and did not
get the RR tag description is the same person
who tried them with PCGS many years ago
with the same result - they are not rotated
reverse's - they are within Mint tolerance.

Morpheus1967

I think it has to be over 5 degrees for a rotated die notation.

edit: It's 7 degrees according to Krause.

Mint tolerance for setting dies is up to seven degrees per die, so any example with a lesser amount is not collectible. The most popular are the 45, 90 and 180 degree rotations. The amount of rotation is described as either clockwise or counter-clockwise.
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http://numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ArticleId=21771

AUandAG

@FredWeinberg said:
US Mint Tolerance is 27 degrees.

That's not 27 degrees.

The vast majority of collectors want their
Rotated Reverse coins to be a MINIMUM
of 45 degrees or more, imo.

I assume that the person who submitted this
coin (and many others) to NGC and did not
get the RR tag description is the same person
who tried them with PCGS many years ago
with the same result - they are not rotated
reverse's - they are within Mint tolerance.

Fred, this applies to modern Proofs as well? I would think that today the tolerances would be much tighter, especially as a Proof.

thanks,
bob

FredWeinberg

As far as I know, it's for moderns too.

I saw the sign on the side of the Presses
when I was on a floor tour of the Phily
Mint years ago.

I don't recall seeing it when I was at the
West Point Mint about 10 years ago, but
I would assume (maybe wrongly) that it's
the same there too.

TommyType

I'm not doubting Fred.....He's forgotten more than I'll ever learn.

But, boy, in a modern production facility, 27 degrees seems like a pretty loose standard!

Unless they set-up to a much tighter standard, then only "reject produced items" if they go outside the 27 degrees. (i.e., "It's still a coin...we'll avoid the expense of scrapping it unless it's REALLY bad".)

grip

Maybe the standards have changed from 20 years ago.
I'm sure it was 15 that I read than.

FredWeinberg

They haven't changed at the
Phily Mint.........

CoinCrazyPA

@FredWeinberg said:
They haven't changed at the
Phily Mint.........

What he said.

ricko

To me, unless it is at least 45 degrees, it is not really of importance. In fact, when I do check this parameter, it is really just a quick glance. Cheers, RickO