Is this really an error?

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AUandAG
AUandAG Posts: 25,050 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Do you think that PCGS would say this is enough of a rotation?
bob :)

Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com

Comments

  • ModCrewman
    ModCrewman Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm not sure what "within tolerance" would be for rotation, but that one doesn't excite me. Your mileage may vary.

  • grip
    grip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I think the allowance is 15deg.

  • FredWeinberg
    FredWeinberg Posts: 6,040 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    US Mint Tolerance is 27 degrees.

    That's not 27 degrees.

    The vast majority of collectors want their
    Rotated Reverse coins to be a MINIMUM
    of 45 degrees or more, imo.

    I assume that the person who submitted this
    coin (and many others) to NGC and did not
    get the RR tag description is the same person
    who tried them with PCGS many years ago
    with the same result - they are not rotated
    reverse's - they are within Mint tolerance.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • Morpheus1967
    Morpheus1967 Posts: 173 ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2017 11:05AM
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    I think it has to be over 5 degrees for a rotated die notation.

    edit: It's 7 degrees according to Krause.

    Mint tolerance for setting dies is up to seven degrees per die, so any example with a lesser amount is not collectible. The most popular are the 45, 90 and 180 degree rotations. The amount of rotation is described as either clockwise or counter-clockwise.
    __
    http://numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ArticleId=21771

  • AUandAG
    AUandAG Posts: 25,050 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @FredWeinberg said:
    US Mint Tolerance is 27 degrees.

    That's not 27 degrees.

    The vast majority of collectors want their
    Rotated Reverse coins to be a MINIMUM
    of 45 degrees or more, imo.

    I assume that the person who submitted this
    coin (and many others) to NGC and did not
    get the RR tag description is the same person
    who tried them with PCGS many years ago
    with the same result - they are not rotated
    reverse's - they are within Mint tolerance.

    Fred, this applies to modern Proofs as well? I would think that today the tolerances would be much tighter, especially as a Proof.

    thanks,
    bob

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • FredWeinberg
    FredWeinberg Posts: 6,040 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    As far as I know, it's for moderns too.

    I saw the sign on the side of the Presses
    when I was on a floor tour of the Phily
    Mint years ago.

    I don't recall seeing it when I was at the
    West Point Mint about 10 years ago, but
    I would assume (maybe wrongly) that it's
    the same there too.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • TommyType
    TommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm not doubting Fred.....He's forgotten more than I'll ever learn. ;)

    But, boy, in a modern production facility, 27 degrees seems like a pretty loose standard!

    Unless they set-up to a much tighter standard, then only "reject produced items" if they go outside the 27 degrees. (i.e., "It's still a coin...we'll avoid the expense of scrapping it unless it's REALLY bad".)

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • grip
    grip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Maybe the standards have changed from 20 years ago.
    I'm sure it was 15 that I read than.

  • FredWeinberg
    FredWeinberg Posts: 6,040 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    They haven't changed at the
    Phily Mint.........

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • CoinCrazyPA
    CoinCrazyPA Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭
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    @FredWeinberg said:
    They haven't changed at the
    Phily Mint.........

    What he said.

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  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    To me, unless it is at least 45 degrees, it is not really of importance. In fact, when I do check this parameter, it is really just a quick glance. Cheers, RickO

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