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PCGS SECURE -- who uses this and what is the advantage ?

BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

Can anyone tell me what is the advantage, or the opposite, in getting the pcgs secure stickie on your slab.? Why do this?
Just what exactly are you getting here for your money.
I have been told by other collectors not to get this and some even say doing this puts your coin under more scrutiny.
What say you??? As a case in point I just purchased a gorgeous 1913 type one matte proof buffalo nickel which was
graded pcgs PR-62 and this coin looks for all the world like a 64 or even a 65. And it has the SECURE logo on the label.
After I received the coin and started a thread here on this, another collector said that he would under no circumstances go for the secure option but rather sends his coins in first thru economy submissions (where possible) and then once he gets the grade he wants it goes back in the second time to get the variety if applicable. Sounds like a plan to me. Any thoughts?

Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"

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    BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the photo of the 1913 type one matte proof-62 slabbed by pcgs

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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    Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've never really understood the logistics, but glad to hear others thoughts !!!

    Timbuk3
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    JeffMTampaJeffMTampa Posts: 3,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I haven't heard about concerns on the "Secure" submission being held to a higher standard during the grading process; I wonder if the graders even know it's been submitted on the secure tier? I suppose a problem coin might be snffed out better, but I see no other grading differances.

    I only submit Secure when it's free (I like free stuff). Unless a coin is valued over $10K I would question it's worth.

    I do see logic in submitting without variety attribution until AFTER a coin has graded. I've wasted many dollars submitting raw coins on a variety tier only to have them come back in a bag. Although I've become pretty good at avoiding problem coins I still get fooled periodically. I think I'll adopt the practice.

    I love them Barber Halves.....
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    ajaanajaan Posts: 17,124 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you submit a non-US coin dated pre-1965 you have to pay the extra $5 for Secure Plus. But, if I'm not mistaken you get a TrueView image of the coin.


    DPOTD-3
    'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

    CU #3245 B.N.A. #428


    Don
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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I remember correctly, PCGS brought these out at the fun show a few years back. They gave out sample slabs at the lunch. They use the sniffer and image every coin. I'm also thinking they said that they were sealed better to keep out moisture. There was more but I don't remember.

    Larry

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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,123 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The reverse label let you bring up the coin on your phone.

    Larry

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    OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,786 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Too many labels and too many options are out there....lots of gimmicks. I've read comments here that the most important thing is the coin, not always the label. Lots of different opinions out there... and doesn't the label lock in the value of the coin with a professional view? I'm not so sure anymore, case in point this coin you just posted, it's gorgeous! I looked at the photo, and wow, such detail, how crisp, what a wonderful Buffalo! Then I scrolled back and looked at the grade. What????? Only PR62?? What could be wrong with the coin to get that low of a grade? Or could it have been the grader? At any rate, beautiful coin!!!!

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    GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From PCGS web site:

    With PCGS Secure, each coin is laser scanned, imaged and registered into the PCGS Secure database. Through this process, the system digitally captures the unique fingerprints of both sides of the coin. This process allows your coin to be identified in the future should it be lost or stolen and then resubmitted to PCGS.

    Adding Secure to your PCGS submission provides you with:
    Total & Complete Coin Analysis & Registration
    Enhanced Security Label with PCGS Gold Shield Icon & Hologram
    More likely Recovery if your coin is lost or stolen
    Digital Imagery for Visual Confirmation in PCGS Cert Verification
    PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity

    PCGS Secure provides protection for your coins, and gives our expert graders high-tech tools to help win the battle against coin doctoring and counterfeiting. In short, nothing protects your coins - and ultimately your collection - like PCGS Secure.

    It is also available free this quarter for up to 30 coins and includes Trueview images and files that auto upload in registry sets.

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,899 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017 5:30AM

    I don't have a "need" for the Secure Plus service, although I thought there was a small discount when getting TrueViews in conjunction with...and the little flashy semi-shiny shield badge!

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
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    BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Onastone said:
    Too many labels and too many options are out there....lots of gimmicks. I've read comments here that the most important thing is the coin, not always the label. Lots of different opinions out there... and doesn't the label lock in the value of the coin with a professional view? I'm not so sure anymore, case in point this coin you just posted, it's gorgeous! I looked at the photo, and wow, such detail, how crisp, what a wonderful Buffalo! Then I scrolled back and looked at the grade. What????? Only PR62?? What could be wrong with the coin to get that low of a grade? Or could it have been the grader? At any rate, beautiful coin!!!!

    Right on! I have looked at this coin every way and cannot find any reason or reasons this is 62. My gain was the seller’s loss I guess (he got a higher graded one for his collection).

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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    DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For the 5 bucks you get a free TrueView, which cost $10 regularly. That's all I ever do it for.

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    **another collector said **

    it sounds to me like "your friend" might be part of the problem instead of part of the solution which is the entire basis of the "SecurePlus" by PCGS.

    I have started to use it exclusively.

    there are advantages to it from MyLoftyPerch although they have been mitigated somewhat with the change in TrueView policy/pricing. each coin is checked for foreign substances and alteration so there is an opportunity to eliminate some things and be certain that a toned coin is legitimate to at least a higher degree. additionally, there is a TrueView included.

    one aspect that is overlooked is that a buyer of a "Secure" coin has that same assurance, so it helps me when/if I sell.

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    panexpoguypanexpoguy Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    **another collector said **

    it sounds to me like "your friend" might be part of the problem instead of part of the solution which is the entire basis of the "SecurePlus" by PCGS.

    I have started to use it exclusively.

    there are advantages to it from MyLoftyPerch although they have been mitigated somewhat with the change in TrueView policy/pricing. each coin is checked for foreign substances and alteration so there is an opportunity to eliminate some things and be certain that a toned coin is legitimate to at least a higher degree. additionally, there is a TrueView included.

    one aspect that is overlooked is that a buyer of a "Secure" coin has that same assurance, so it helps me when/if I sell.

    I also think that including the free TrueView in ebay listings is a selling point to collectors who are into the registry. Image is associated with coin and added automatically. Saves the time and expense of imaging the coin on your own.

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    nencoinnencoin Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017 3:00PM

    We do not use it except when required (e.g. world coins), but it is nice to get the TrueView images. The ability to detect coins that have been stolen is a nice feature also (particularly to those who seem insistent upon leaving their inventory unattended).
    : (

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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I use the secure service exclusively. Just a better look over, sniffer and an image of your beautiful coin. :)

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I use it to get free TruViews when there are specials and I am required to use it on world coin submissions.

    The drawback is, if you don't agree with the assigned grade on a secure coin, the majority of the time you can't crack the coin out and try to send it in as raw. It should be identified as a secure coin (I am under the impression they scan all coins they receive) and given the same grade assigned before as long as nothing has changed.

    You would have to send the coin in "reconsideration" in order to have the coin re-evaluated. This is just my understanding of the process and Secure features. I'm also guessing they scan every coin they receive now.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As others have stated, the grading standards are the same but the coin-slab product undergoes more security measures and you receive a TrueView image for reduced cost.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was at a show where a major dealer was smiling from ear to ear with his secure plus MS $5 Bust coin as HRH passed by. They sure make some owners deliriously happy.

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    AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Only when forced to through some arcane policy and it is so insignificant it has no correlation to higher prices or demand in any way that I have seen. NO ONE has ever come to my table and said, "I am looking for coins in Secure Holders."

    It got started with the sniffers and the scanning but has not evolved into much usefulness.

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
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    BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's difficult to advise someone else on what to do with a high value coin they own, but here it goes:

    Suppose you do crack it, then re submit it to another TPG, then it gets re holdered. If you ever sell the coin, I would have to think that you would have to disclose the fact that it was once holdered as a PCGS secure coin.

    The reason I say that, is because somewhere down the line of ownership, the new owner might want to submit (cross) it back to PCGS secure not knowing the history of the coin, then when PCGS scans the coin all the bells and whistles will go off.

    I would think that you have to find out why PCGS assigned that grade.

    My humble opinion,

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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    tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldminers said:
    From PCGS web site:

    With PCGS Secure, each coin is laser scanned, imaged and registered into the PCGS Secure database. Through this process, the system digitally captures the unique fingerprints of both sides of the coin. This process allows your coin to be identified in the future should it be lost or stolen and then resubmitted to PCGS.

    So..... how does this work? Does PCGS laser scan every coin coming in or just Secure submissions? If you crack out a Secure and resubmit economy do they laser scan and compare to their data base? If not do you have to tell them that your coin (let's say a 16-D dime) was stolen and from this day forward they laser scan and compare all 16-D dimes? I don't see how this works unless the fingerprint of every coin is laser scanned regardless of submission level and compared to scans already in their database. How else would they discover my stolen coin?

    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

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    tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I did use it, (at the suggestion of the PCGS rep at a show), for my eight free submissions when I signed up. Unfortunately they did not include free TrueView with Secure at that time.

    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

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    BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BuffaloIronTail said:
    It's difficult to advise someone else on what to do with a high value coin they own, but here it goes:

    Suppose you do crack it, then re submit it to another TPG, then it gets re holdered. If you ever sell the coin, I would have to think that you would have to disclose the fact that it was once holdered as a PCGS secure coin.

    The reason I say that, is because somewhere down the line of ownership, the new owner might want to submit (cross) it back to PCGS secure not knowing the history of the coin, then when PCGS scans the coin all the bells and whistles will go off.

    I would think that you have to find out why PCGS assigned that grade.

    My humble opinion,

    Pete

    Pete --
    In this case PCGS is conflating minor planchet laminations with DAMAGE which most collectors will agree should not be called damage. I would feel no compulsion to say anything if the coin would cross into (raw submission) another slabbers holder with no mention of any defects. If they added a qualifier such as planchet lamination(s) as I have seen done I would not have any problems with that. Once you bust a coin out of its slab its a raw coin again as far as I am concerned.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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    BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AMRC said:
    Only when forced to through some arcane policy and it is so insignificant it has no correlation to higher prices or demand in any way that I have seen. NO ONE has ever come to my table and said, "I am looking for coins in Secure Holders."

    It got started with the sniffers and the scanning but has not evolved into much usefulness.

    I agree with you 100 percent.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Secure plus = "free" True View (for the extra +$5 per coin for the secure tier).

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So! Do the folks submitting overseas have to submit US coins under the secure+ tier? We do for foreign coins and US coins are foreign to them! I have bought several Certified US coins from Europe and they all have been in Secure+ holders. @Boosibri Maybe you can answer this?

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    3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...I heard from a guy here locally that SP has more reviewers putting eyes on the coins submitted...this same guy though was driving around town in a 20+ year old jalopy and smoking softpack KOOL 100's...In the end, it's like trusting a fart with the flu ;)

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    DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BUFFNIXX said:

    @AMRC said:
    Only when forced to through some arcane policy and it is so insignificant it has no correlation to higher prices or demand in any way that I have seen. NO ONE has ever come to my table and said, "I am looking for coins in Secure Holders."

    It got started with the sniffers and the scanning but has not evolved into much usefulness.

    I agree with you 100 percent.

    I still have no idea why SP is required on foreign coins??????

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tommy44 said:

    @Goldminers said:
    From PCGS web site:

    With PCGS Secure, each coin is laser scanned, imaged and registered into the PCGS Secure database. Through this process, the system digitally captures the unique fingerprints of both sides of the coin. This process allows your coin to be identified in the future should it be lost or stolen and then resubmitted to PCGS.

    So..... how does this work? Does PCGS laser scan every coin coming in or just Secure submissions? If you crack out a Secure and resubmit economy do they laser scan and compare to their data base? If not do you have to tell them that your coin (let's say a 16-D dime) was stolen and from this day forward they laser scan and compare all 16-D dimes? I don't see how this works unless the fingerprint of every coin is laser scanned regardless of submission level and compared to scans already in their database. How else would they discover my stolen coin?

    The only way PCGS detects if a coin has previously been through Secure Plus is if it is submitted again, let's say raw, for the same SP service. Only then can it be identified by the "fingerprinting" technology.

    So if you crack a SP slab and submit the raw coin for a non-SP service it will not be ID'd. Same for a stolen SP coin. (FWIW, the procedure for reporting a stolen SP coin has never been widely addressed but I have no doubt there is a method for tagging it in the SP database if PCGS is alerted.)

    As for the pro's and con's, some folks like that the SP process involves the Sniffer, which tests for PCGS-banned substances intended to deceive. If the Sniffer "barks" it found something on the coin. It does NOT judge AT/NT. (PCGS has been very quiet about the Sniffer in recent years and I don't see it mentioned by name on their website. Draw your own conclusion.)

    Some folks are not crazy about the additional handling that SP coins endure. When SP was introduced in 2010 a PCGS video showed an employee inserting and later removing (by hand) a raw coin into and out of a CD drive-like tray. Some collectors bristled. (Personally I believe PCGS is always very careful with their handling but accidents do happen.)

    PCGS has brought the price way down on SP, and with the bundled TV it seems like a deal to me. I am always surprised when someone says they dislike the service (as one of my favorite, very large PCGS dealers told me recently). I think we need more documentation and images on graded coins and SP helps with that.
    Lance.

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    my understanding is that the "fingerprinting" has nothing to do with the grade. if a coin was cracked out of a Secure holder and resubmitted under the Secure service, all PCGS would determine is if the coin had been tampered with. then it would be regarded. I seriously doubt that if the coin is ID'd by the "sniffer" that it would be assigned a grade based on that.

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    BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    So! Do the folks submitting overseas have to submit US coins under the secure+ tier? We do for foreign coins and US coins are foreign to them! I have bought several Certified US coins from Europe and they all have been in Secure+ holders. @Boosibri Maybe you can answer this?

    Everything is Secure Plus in Europe. Great service with lightening fast turnarounds for all tiers and a few other benefits.

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    crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,813 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a great service and like I said I use it regularly. To each their own :)
    I also agree more documentation on our coins is what we need, not less.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
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    10000lakes10000lakes Posts: 811 ✭✭✭✭

    I use non secure for all raw submissions and secure for most re-grade submissions.
    I have had several coins get a higher grade on a re-grade submission after the coin was already in a secure holder so i don't think they are capping the grade based on the first grade it got when secure was used.

    Also the hi-res Truveviews make it a lot easier to micro grade and compare against other Trueview coins and determine if it looks like it is still under graded and worth a re-submit.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The higher scrutiny is good for certain coins. I feel it's nice to have it for toners so you can be sure the coin didn't just sneak by but has been subjected to and passed a higher standard.

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    **it is so insignificant it has no correlation to higher prices or demand **

    the intent of the service is to help diminish the ability to doctor coins and also to battle against counterfeit slabs. in that regard it has succeeded with no really measurable way. strangely, some of the replies in this thread which look upon that attempt in a negative way speak loudly to me --- they are less concerned about the long term stability of our Hobby and more concerned about profit and their personal enrichment.

    --- CAC can be hyped and marketed to inflate the cost of a coin, so that is good??
    --- the Secure service offered by PCGS(at almost the exact same cost) to help fight against things that harm the Hobby cannot be hyped to inflate the cost of a coin, so that is bad??

    I think that's sort of backwards and speaks poorly of dealers, some that have been vocal about "protecting" the integrity of the Hobby.

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    ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lkeigwin said:

    @tommy44 said:

    @Goldminers said:
    From PCGS web site:

    With PCGS Secure, each coin is laser scanned, imaged and registered into the PCGS Secure database. Through this process, the system digitally captures the unique fingerprints of both sides of the coin. This process allows your coin to be identified in the future should it be lost or stolen and then resubmitted to PCGS.

    So..... how does this work? Does PCGS laser scan every coin coming in or just Secure submissions? If you crack out a Secure and resubmit economy do they laser scan and compare to their data base? If not do you have to tell them that your coin (let's say a 16-D dime) was stolen and from this day forward they laser scan and compare all 16-D dimes? I don't see how this works unless the fingerprint of every coin is laser scanned regardless of submission level and compared to scans already in their database. How else would they discover my stolen coin?

    The only way PCGS detects if a coin has previously been through Secure Plus is if it is submitted again, let's say raw, for the same SP service. Only then can it be identified by the "fingerprinting" technology.

    So if you crack a SP slab and submit the raw coin for a non-SP service it will not be ID'd. Same for a stolen SP coin. (FWIW, the procedure for reporting a stolen SP coin has never been widely addressed but I have no doubt there is a method for tagging it in the SP database if PCGS is alerted.)

    As for the pro's and con's, some folks like that the SP process involves the Sniffer, which tests for PCGS-banned substances intended to deceive. If the Sniffer "barks" it found something on the coin. It does NOT judge AT/NT. (PCGS has been very quiet about the Sniffer in recent years and I don't see it mentioned by name on their website. Draw your own conclusion.)

    Some folks are not crazy about the additional handling that SP coins endure. When SP was introduced in 2010 a PCGS video showed an employee inserting and later removing (by hand) a raw coin into and out of a CD drive-like tray. Some collectors bristled. (Personally I believe PCGS is always very careful with their handling but accidents do happen.)

    PCGS has brought the price way down on SP, and with the bundled TV it seems like a deal to me. I am always surprised when someone says they dislike the service (as one of my favorite, very large PCGS dealers told me recently). I think we need more documentation and images on graded coins and SP helps with that.
    Lance.

    I'm not trying to question you, but can you tell me if this is speculation on your part or if you know this information as fact?

    If you know this, did you hear this from an "insider" at PCGS or a dealer or what? It seems that there is a reason PCGS doesn't come out to everyone and explain 100% of what the sniffer is and what they do with it, what their process is for processing Secure Plus coins and what they actually do with the secure service on stolen/cracked out coins and all other submitted coins for that matter. Seems like proprietary info to me that they would want to keep close to their chest...

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS explained these things publicly when SP was announced in 2010 in order to promote the service: That the fingerprinting is specific to SP and not done with other services. That the technology is so good it can ID previously submitted SP coins even if they have been altered. That it could be useful to spot stolen coins.

    A short while later the Sniffer was introduced and added to the SP process. The specific banned substances were cited...some obvious like putty, some surprising like BlueRibbon, some gross like nose grease and urine. A video was produced and released as part of the Sniffer's rollout. We saw it bark at putty applied to a Morgan.

    Certainly PCGS could have changed, improved, or even dropped procedures and/or the technology since that time. Whether PCGS shares what they do publicly or chooses to keep it confidential are business decisions I am sure they weigh carefully.
    Lance.

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    dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wished then--and still wish--that PCGS would put every coin through this Secure process as a matter of routine. Among other advantages, it could be used to stabilize grading criteria and grading pops over time.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As the secure plus process is improved/stabilized/expanded, it is a foundation for computer grading. Also, I see it as a gateway to a new grading system.... i.e. Technical grade (SP scan), Eye appeal (tarnish) etc., with a number for each or possibly an aggregate (not as likely). Cheers, RickO

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    RE: " the system digitally captures the unique fingerprints of both sides of the coin."

    Hmmm... I thought ordinary coins had three sides --- must be a problem with the battery in my bifocals.

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    specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Using the secure price level, you get images done for $5. good deal

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