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UPDATE-Ebay returns and how could I have done this better

TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 6, 2017 10:54AM in U.S. Coin Forum

In case anyone wants to slog through this, I thought I would post.

I sold a well struck 1941-S walker on ebay 2 weeks ago in PCGS MS-65 for $420 (I haven't posted it here but anyone is welcome to do so). Buyer asked for a return as not as described. After talking with a couple of ebay sellers I know, I decide it is not worth the hassle, and I agree to a return-and to pay return postage (rather than a simply no hassle return where buyer pays return postage). Here is what transpires.

Buyer:
Doesn't match description or photos
I bid on this coin because in the photo it is a beautiful solid gold color and in reality it is not Please snail mail me a return label since I do not have a printer

Me—after calling ebay:
HI--I received your note. I will accept the return but there is no way to send you a label. You can do it online or call ebay, they can advise you what to do. So, let me know the return shipping cost and I can approve that and then upon return of the item, I will pay the refund and I will send you a check for the shipping cost.

Buyer:
Ebay is sending me a shipping label by the 27th I'll keep you posted .

Me on 28th – after calling ebay as requested (after the 27th):
Hi--ebay has advised me that they have not sent you a label. Feel free to address with them. I am not snail mailing you a label. I have agreed to a refund, so if you mail it back to me, I will refund your money and I will send you funds to cover your mailing costs. Thank you

Buyer:
I am a serious collector who pays over 5 grand for the right CC Morgan, I just started on the Long Walker set and the 41S with a complete gold tint was amazing and I thought I had found the perfect person to buy the set from and the 38 D was next on my list To bad it was misrepresented by you. Very Disappointing

Me:
I'm not sure where this is coming from but here are the facts:

  1. You asked for a return including postage, based upon a slabbed PCGS MS 65 coin not being as represented.
  2. You also said you didn't have a printer so I should snail mail you a return label.
  3. I accepted the return. I then called ebay who said that snail mailing you a return label was not in accordance with policy.
  4. I wrote and advised you of same.
  5. You said ebay would send you a label.
  6. I checked with ebay and they said that they did not send you a label and that you needed to return the item and then I would need to send you the postage by paypal or by check.
  7. I advised you of same.
  8. You sent me this offensive email.

As I said, I'm not sure where you are coming from. I agreed to accept the return and provide a refund, and to pay the postage, upon the return of the item (and providing proof of return postage). Because you have only 1 feedback, because you claim not to have a printer and asked me to do something which is not ebay compliant, because this is a PCGS slabbed item, and because I cannot remember ever having a return, let alone a claim of misrepresentation, I was and am suspicious that this is some type of scam. I would not do something that violates ebay policy . Ebay advised me that you could have a friend print out a label, but that not having a printer was not really an excuse. In the alternative, ebay advised, you would need to return the item and then I would refund your money and then pay your return postage. I agreed to that and told you so.

As for your disappointment and your claim of misrepresentation, we can simply agree to agree. I am surprised that you filed this as an item not properly described. I assumed, perhaps incorrectly so, that you are inexperienced. You are not experienced with ebay. I am sorry you are disappointed with the item. However, the item is quite nice and sold cheaply, so I am happy to have it back. Get it to me and I'll refund.

Buyer:

You can spin it anyway you want. But posting a picture of a coin that is completely toned gold and then sending out a silver coin that is just toned around the edges is dishonest , Anyone who sees the picture and then sees the coin knows this to be self evident. The coin was bid up based on the extra valuation some collectors place on toned coins myself included If you cannot put a stamp on a label then I'll deal with ebay . I should not have to do busy work to rectify your dishonesty . If their is a scam going on it may not be the first time you have misrepresented a coin , Those are the facts and you should be blocked from posting on ebay since I am probably not the first victim of this photo shop scamming ,a complaint and goal I intend to pursue when this issue is settled. Shame on you.

Me:

As I said, if you simply return the item, I will give you a refund. I will also refund your postage. I will still do that. As I said, while I do not agree with you, I prefer not to dwell on it.

Now, however, you have called me a scammer and you have said I have photo shopped the item. I don't know how to photoshop. And I took a photo with full lighting and on auto. Calling me a scammer and your other comments are more disconcerting since these words are defamatory. While I am not a photo-shopper, I am a lawyer, and your comments are defamatory per se under Virginia law. Of course, I know you are not in Virginia, but I ask you to cease and desist such action.

I do intend to report this activity to ebay.

*****I then called ebay a third time and they assured me that it would not count against me, that the buyer would have 10 days to return the item and then it would be over.

Buyer:
You can save your attorney threats since I have 6 high powered attorneys at my Martial arts studio who would take a bullet for me and I'll continue to file complaint after complaint and shout it from the Mountain top that you posted a photo of a gold toned coin and then sent out a silver coin. The truth is the truth and you should be stopped from doing business on ebay. And that is my goal.

Me:
it wasn't a threat, but a demand to cease and desist. By all means, ask your attorneys who is being reasonable here. We are talking about a $420 item, right? My address on my invoice slip is the correct one as follows:

What a hassle! Criticism welcome.

Tom

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Comments

  • LouisCampLouisCamp Posts: 468 ✭✭✭

    I feel sorry for you.

    lchobbyco
    ANA Life-Member
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is one tight-knit martial arts studio!

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All this over a mailing label ...

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,710 ✭✭✭

    What a POS. What's his username? Not someone I want to deal with. I have blocked people for FAR less.

    http://stores.ebay.ca/Mattscoin - Canadian coins, World Coins, Silver, Gold, Coin lots, Modern Mint Products & Collections
  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017 3:47PM

    I hope you live in a different State. Sounds like your dealing with a person with a unsound mind. I think if I was in your shoe I would not argue with him as it seems to get him more upset. I think he is doing this on purpose why I don't know but after your done with this I would not allow him to bid on your items any more. He sounds like a NUT JOB!

    I hope you own a gun? Just kidding (well sort of). Who know's he might never send it back, tell you he did or worse yet send you the package empty. When you get it if its at the Post Office I would open it in front of the Post Office personel just in case. I got a package once, but it was empty. Ebay considered the package complete and it was not their fault it was empty.

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017 3:54PM

    This just in from Whitetiger20009 with a feedback of 1..really, I am at a loss. With folks like this he may not have to work that hard to get me to no longer sell on ebay....

    Buyer:
    I am not going to stop. Until no one else is a victim of this type of misrepresentation and it is not about the Money. That is not even pocket change it is about integrity ,honesty and honor. but we both know without the premium of gold toning the wear on the left hand and the ding on the sun do not make this a super high end 65 which is what I like to collect . I have already escalated my complaint and I am now going to go to corporate and the executive offices simply based on values. I look forward to a long dance and a resolution of you no longer being able to sell on ebay

    Me:
    Please return for a full refund.

    Tom

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017 3:48PM

    Mountains getting made out of mole hills. Collectible insanity, pettiness, and endless misunderstandings and insinuations. With the real con artists at many shows and still selling on ebay, he goes after you? What does this do to the hobby? Better to be collecting nickel return bottles or playing scratch offs than not even making minimum wage dealing with numbskulls. And why I wonder can't he get a shipping label to send it back, is he handicapped, or so entitled he turns up his nose at such a humble task? And yet he knows how to go ballistic as an internet keyboard warrior.

    I would keep issues like this really short and concise otherwise it gets too exasperating.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TPRC said:
    This just in from Whitetiger20009 with a feedback of 1..really, I am at a loss. With folks like this he may not have to work that hard to get me to no longer sell on ebay....

    Buyer:
    I am not going to stop. Until no one else is a victim of this type of misrepresentation and it is not about the Money. That is not even pocket change it is about integrity ,honesty and honor. but we both know without the premium of gold toning the wear on the left hand and the ding on the sun do not make this a super high end 65 which is what I like to collect . I have already escalated my complaint and I am now going to go to corporate and the executive offices simply based on values. I look forward to a long dance and a resolution of you no longer being able to sell on ebay

    Me:
    Please return for a full refund.

    I would not respond to him anymore at this point. It's up to him to return the coin.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭

    While I don't agree with the grief this buyer is giving you, he does have a point with your photography. The pic in your listing shows a coin that appears to have a gold hue over the whole coin. If the coin is actually more silver in hand then you probably need some adjustment to your lighting and/or color settings on your camera. This will help prevent future misunderstandings like this. Good luck.

    Joe.

  • No HeadlightsNo Headlights Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rich has the perfect response. Just keep sending it until he follows eBay policies. I expect he and his 6 lawyers are all crooks
    Good luck

  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 3,566 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017 4:55PM

    @grote15 said:

    @TPRC said:
    This just in from Whitetiger20009 with a feedback of 1..really, I am at a loss. With folks like this he may not have to work that hard to get me to no longer sell on ebay....

    Buyer:
    I am not going to stop. Until no one else is a victim of this type of misrepresentation and it is not about the Money. That is not even pocket change it is about integrity ,honesty and honor. but we both know without the premium of gold toning the wear on the left hand and the ding on the sun do not make this a super high end 65 which is what I like to collect . I have already escalated my complaint and I am now going to go to corporate and the executive offices simply based on values. I look forward to a long dance and a resolution of you no longer being able to sell on ebay

    Me:
    Please return for a full refund.

    I would not respond to him anymore at this point. It's up to him to return the coin.

    I agree with your thoughts! When and if you get the coin back look it over good to make sure it was not tampered with and then return the money. There is always one bad egg in the crowd.

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had something similar with a buyer about 6 months ago. In my case it was a $10 item, so refunded his money and just told him to just keep the coin. I congratulated him for "winning" -- but I also called eBay to make sure that the whole email chain was clearly attached to his record. Probably didn't do any good but it made me feel better.

    FWIW my guy has currently 3800+ feedback, so not the same as yours.

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TPRC
    Whitetiger20009 appears to be an invalid user ID.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,710 ✭✭✭

    @astrorat said:
    @TPRC
    Whitetiger20009 appears to be an invalid user ID.

    You have to put it on your block list in all lower case letters.

    http://stores.ebay.ca/Mattscoin - Canadian coins, World Coins, Silver, Gold, Coin lots, Modern Mint Products & Collections
  • DaveWcoinsDaveWcoins Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭

    I agree. I just tried to block him.

    Dave Wnuck. Redbook contributor; long time PNG Member; listed on the PCGS Board of Experts. PM me with your email address to receive my e-newsletter, and visit DaveWcoins.com Find me on eBay at davewcoins
  • TurboSnailTurboSnail Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017 6:10PM

    Do not dispute with customers upfront. And do not trust buyer nor ebay customer support. Sent return mailing label in a registered mail as a back up if that makes you more comfortable.

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The second you get a whiff of crazy, give him the letter of the law and nothing else. If you are really an attorney, you can well understand why.

    I am not a lawyer, but I think you'd be hard pressed to win a defamation suit against someone who calls you names over email.

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pokermandude said:

    @astrorat said:
    @TPRC
    Whitetiger20009 appears to be an invalid user ID.

    You have to put it on your block list in all lower case letters.

    Thanks ... that worked.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the responses....the less said the better. Got it.

    Tom

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Typical pain in the as$ customer.

    Just send the darn thing back, and Ill refund it!!!!

  • CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cobra Kai !!

    The more you VAM..
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,832 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Should have just told them to go to the post office

    your gold half obverse

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,725 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the WLH shared above is the image you used in the auction then it seems fairly obvious that the white balance settings are off and that the coin would appear more white (untoned) in-hand than in the image. This is especially obvious given that the PCGS plastic is an unnatural yellowish color in your images. The buyer should have likely had a much better idea of what was offered.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,104 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks...btw...whitetiger20009........is blocked

    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • Jackthecat1Jackthecat1 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭

    I just blocked him. Unfortunately you just run into crazy people sometimes.

    Member ANS, ANA, GSNA, TNC



    image
  • TradernikTradernik Posts: 111 ✭✭

    Total BS posturing by the buyer. I've dealt with professional crybabies like this in another area of life. It's either buyer's remorse or a scam attempt of some kind. But also agree that there is zero point in getting into a message exchange like this. You got the whiff of crazy. Just end it. And don't bring up lawyers.

  • PurfrockPurfrock Posts: 545 ✭✭✭

    Sorry for your frustration. I understand the impulse to set somebody straight when they hurl accusations, I have gone that route many times myself, but inevitably it just leads to hours of frustration. I am like a few others on here that think something fishy might be in the works. It is good advice to open the return box at the PO to verify the contents. Hopefully, after the 10 days are up, you can put this one behind you and never think about it again.

    EAC, ANA Member
  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    If the WLH shared above is the image you used in the auction then it seems fairly obvious that the white balance settings are off and that the coin would appear more white (untoned) in-hand than in the image. This is especially obvious given that the PCGS plastic is an unnatural yellowish color in your images. The buyer should have likely had a much better idea of what was offered.

    I agree that the buyer should have realized the picture was off, but if he thought he was receiving a golden orange 41-S and didn't get it, I can see his point, although the buyer seems to be overreacting and posturing, but the seller here didn't help himself by lengthy responses to the buyer.
    As several posters have already said, it's best to stick to the facts and say as little as possible when the person you are dealing with seems unbalanced.

  • DavideoDavideo Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭

    @Purfrock said:
    Sorry for your frustration. I understand the impulse to set somebody straight when they hurl accusations, I have gone that route many times myself, but inevitably it just leads to hours of frustration. I am like a few others on here that think something fishy might be in the works. It is good advice to open the return box at the PO to verify the contents. Hopefully, after the 10 days are up, you can put this one behind you and never think about it again.

    Serious question: has anyone had the "open at the PO" strategy actually make a difference? Will a postal clerk pay attention and be willing to make a formal statement of some sort and will that matter in a dispute?

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,610 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017 4:38AM

    What a griefer.

    I would not get in detailed convo w him. I would tell him returns accepted up till end of return period. No refund until item received item must be in original holder. His shipping it his problem. I would not waiver they return at their expense policy. As far as his printer too bad so sad let him write out his address on package go thru ups line and pay ship it.

    This guy sounds like the worst of the worst. Be sure block him. This just one of those bad luck things. Don’t be tryhard in this some people difficult don’t let them bug u.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • mustangmanbobmustangmanbob Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1) Buyer is whacko.
    2) Seller stoked the whacko.
    3) Image was not the best.
    4) Ditto, Only response to buyer: Return coin for full refund.
    5) Block away, but with a Feedback 1 buyer, you will never block him. He may not have a printer, but can create a dozen new ebay id's.
    6) IMHO, he is trying to scam ebay into refunding his money, and letting him keep the item.

  • TurboSnailTurboSnail Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017 6:33AM

    For the record, this is just one of many issues that had happened to me .

    Some common issues I also experienced more than once

    Refused to sign the package nor door tag and request a new delivery without signature.
    Refused to step out of their rooms and request the returning package to be pick up behind their gated fence.

    Most of the time, buyer/scammer would try to make a transaction so difficult, newbies would make mistakes while seasoned/volume sellers would just give in. It may be consider a cost of doing business. However everyone pays(beside amazon/ebay) when seller spoil the unwanted customers.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Threads such as this make me glad I do not sell coins. Sorry to see such issues...best of luck resolving what appears to be a nasty situation. Cheers, RickO

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The guy was mad that he wasted his time buying a coin that looks gold toned and arrived white. If TPRC knows
    the coin does not look like the image, better to take it back without arguing with a nut, who knows Kung-Fu!

    -

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,826 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I always accept return then block UNLESS the mistake was clearly mine.

    But, I'm not sure what I would have done in this case. The mailing label issue is strange. I've never had a customer who didn't just print the eBay return label. That does make the return awkward...and hard to accommodate the customer.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how the big auction companies like Stacks, HA and GC handle situations like this? I have a similar problem with a Fujifilm camera, images look tan, why I don't use it for online listings.

  • PhilLynottPhilLynott Posts: 881 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    I wonder how the big auction companies like Stacks, HA and GC handle situations like this? I have a similar problem with a Fujifilm camera, images look tan, why I don't use it for online listings.

    I'm assuming they have their bases covered by whatever agreements we're forced to click in order to bid. Probably based on how good of a buyer you are they may take returns if you're unhappy. If you're a one time buyer being a pain in the rear I'm sure they'll kindly tell you to eat dirt.

  • KellenCoinKellenCoin Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭

    That is a situation with no winners. I am sorry you had to deal with that.

    YN Member of the ANA, ANS, NBS, EAC, C4, MCA, PNNA, CSNS, ILNA, TEC, and more!
    Always buying numismatic literature and sample slabs.

  • No HeadlightsNo Headlights Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To logger 7
    Heritage handles it by charging a HUGE shipping fee on top of the 20% auction fee. They win every time

  • Alltheabove76Alltheabove76 Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭

    You got into too much petty bickering IMO. If you are a lawyer you know you cannot sue someone for defamation in a private correspondence. You have to prove damages in order to sue for defamation. By saying that you were stoking the flames. The guy is an idiot. Either he sends it back or he doesn't. Stop wasting your time worrying.

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,532 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I didn't wade through all the responses but do want to mention that all that is needed to create a label is a package and a pencil or pen. Take to the PO and send it off.

    I'd like his ebay ID please. Either post or PM.

    thanks,
    bob

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • OwenSeymourOwenSeymour Posts: 366 ✭✭✭✭

    Sounds like the kind of person who buys coins to make petty argument rather than to enjoy coins.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dr. Phil would probably be able to intercede. Not me.

  • sellitstoresellitstore Posts: 2,470 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2017 10:46AM

    The guy expected a return label because that's how many companies outside Ebay handle returns.

    But this is Ebay and returns are handled by their procedures which does not include the seller providing a return label.

    Edited to add: I'm wrong. Sorry. I stand corrected.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.

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