@rwyarmch said:
Durham Sunderland token overstruck on an Anglesey penny (so, a hefty 29+ gms). It appears to be the example from R.C. Bell's collection.
I have always wanted an off-metal (not copper) Conder token but I was quite pleased recently to get this one in a Heritage auction. Not only is it a nice proof white metal example of the DH-185 Middlesex token commemorating the recovery of George III from mental problems (I think that was temporary), but Bill McKivor of The Copper Corner bought this from the estate of James Watt Jr. (son of James Watt of Boulton and Watt–Soho Mint fame). He shows this exact piece on his website here: thecoppercorner.com/history/bw_photos4.htm
Wow, nice gem @spacehayduke.
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I posted my receant pickup on the us side because I was getting so nervous when I didn’t
show up for 24 days.......stuck in customs
I also have 3 in for grading hope to post them soon
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.
"Wow @rwyarmch beautiful condition. I have never seen such a thick looking cypher. I like it.
Are many others like this style?"
The reverse of this mule was produced with the penny die from Anglesey 256 (also used on the Anglesey 264 and 265 mules). The large and thick cypher really stands out on a halfpenny token (while the legend is partially obscured).
I like it too despite D&H's description ("a poor copy" of the reverse of the Anglesey 2 penny)!
You’ve been posting some really nice ones @spacehayduke
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Here’s a recent pickup, it’s later than the Condor tokens but really love the theme.
Not sure if it’s correct but there is supposed to be a mintage of 100 but don’t know.
And frankly don’t care because I just love it
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It came with a trueview but I need to send it back in for a better one.
First is the tv, below is mine. Mine is much more like in hand.
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Angusshire Dundee #14
Purchased as a NGC63RBPL I felt the token was undergraded and also deserved a RD designator. Cracked out and submitted back to NGC, came back as 65RDPL.
The token surfaces are highly reflective and the NGC photo appears to have picked up color from the surrounding area. The token is a strong red. The NGC Photo Vision service occasionally seems to have problems with PL surfaces.
R.I.P. Wayne, Brad Collecting: Conder tokens 19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
@BillDugan1959 said:
Very nice condors, especially #1 and (the sadly missing) #3.
Guildhall was nearly totally destroyed during the Second World War, but it was rebuilt and a lot of the exterior stonework seems to have been saved and reused. Beautiful token. A bit jealous, actually.
I think it was only the roof that was destroyed, which was an 1866 restoration in any case. I'm sure not only the roof was damaged (Gog and Magog burned too) but the stonework didn't need completely rebuilding.
@giorgio11 said:
Thank you BillDugan1959 but I have to remind you, condor is a bird, Mr. Conder was among the earliest (or possibly the earliest?) catalogers of this wonderful token series that bears his name.
I always wondered why the EAC (Early American Copper) collectors have not latched on to the contemporaneous Conder tokens. They are rare, spectacular early copper "coin" substitutes (I think of them as "notgeld" or emergency money, as the earliest pieces were issued due to an abundant supply of copper from Wales coupled with the British regent's resistance to putting the Regal visage on so ignoble a metal as copper; a situation alleviated by the copper pence and twopence Soho Mint issues of 1797), and if they were U.S. coins their value would probably be a hundredfold greater.
An earlier cataloguer of these tokens was Samuel Birchall of Leeds, whose A Descriptive List of the Provincial Copper Coins or Tokens issued between the Years 1786 and 1796, based on his own collection, was two years ahead of James Conder. Perhaps it came too early, as it was seen as uncomprehensive with unsophisticated descriptions, despite including 1000 tokens. Even Conder's was superseded by Dalton and Hamer, so it was perhaps luck that his name is associated with them.
Even the Anglesey Druid halfpenny (1787) may not have been the first, as is often said. There's evidence that Colonel Charles Mordaunt, who owned a cotton mill in Halsall, Lancashire, asked Matthew Boulton of Soho, Birmingham to strike him some tokens as early as 1783 (known as the Halsall token).
I think the monarchy takes a bit of undeserved flack for refusing to have coins struck in copper (if they even refused at all, or would've been able to refuse). There were a lot of problems with copper, and it hadn't worked even though it had been attempted by James I, Charles I, Charles II, James II, William & Mary, Anne and Georges I-III before the crisis of the 1780-90s, while Charles II, James II and William and Mary tried tin, an even less noble metal at the time.
The need for a coin to be worth its face value and the ever-changing differential between the price of silver and copper made counterfeiting inevitable, since one or the other would be worth more for the metal content (and so better melted down and turned into a larger number of inferior coins). The price of copper at times meant the coins had to be huge to give them their full value, which was a big problem for Boulton too. The 1797 coins didn't resolve the issue in any case - tokens re-emerged in the 1810s. The solution only came with the introduction of the Gold Standard in 1821, when the value of the metal was de-coupled from the face value, and all coins could be made with materials worth less than face value.
@JohnConduitt thanks for your post and some new perspectives and information. The changing ratios between gold, silver, and copper coinage (if any) were certainly not a problem unique to Britain or the United States, were they? I never knew about the Halsall token before.
Comments
That is an amazing piece @rwyarmch
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Herez my Sunderland.......
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That iron bridge must have been quite the manufacturing feat at that time. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall
I have always wanted an off-metal (not copper) Conder token but I was quite pleased recently to get this one in a Heritage auction. Not only is it a nice proof white metal example of the DH-185 Middlesex token commemorating the recovery of George III from mental problems (I think that was temporary), but Bill McKivor of The Copper Corner bought this from the estate of James Watt Jr. (son of James Watt of Boulton and Watt–Soho Mint fame). He shows this exact piece on his website here: thecoppercorner.com/history/bw_photos4.htm
Heritage's images:
Wow, great history and great piece!
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Here is my one Conder from the James Watt Jr collection. It is now in a prong holder and I should reshoot.
Best, SH
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Wow, nice gem @spacehayduke.
.
.
I posted my receant pickup on the us side because I was getting so nervous when I didn’t
show up for 24 days.......stuck in customs
I also have 3 in for grading hope to post them soon
.
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
There have been some great tokens posted in this thread. Let’s keep it going.
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Anglesey 419 halfpenny
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Wow @rwyarmch beautiful condition. I have never seen such a thick looking cypher. I like it.
Are many others like this style?
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
"Wow @rwyarmch beautiful condition. I have never seen such a thick looking cypher. I like it.
Are many others like this style?"
The reverse of this mule was produced with the penny die from Anglesey 256 (also used on the Anglesey 264 and 265 mules). The large and thick cypher really stands out on a halfpenny token (while the legend is partially obscured).
I like it too despite D&H's description ("a poor copy" of the reverse of the Anglesey 2 penny)!
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Thanks for the explanation @rwyarmch ........"Poor copy"....Ha!
It is a definite looker.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Wow @spacehayduke that is exquisite!
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Thanks CRF!
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You’ve been posting some really nice ones @spacehayduke
.
.
Here’s a recent pickup, it’s later than the Condor tokens but really love the theme.
Not sure if it’s correct but there is supposed to be a mintage of 100 but don’t know.
And frankly don’t care because I just love it
.
It came with a trueview but I need to send it back in for a better one.
First is the tv, below is mine. Mine is much more like in hand.
.
.
.
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
My one and only, but may have another one on the way.......
There is now a conder date set, so that is cool for anyone that likes registry sets.
There is a short run of advertising tokens (Lothian 53-57) struck in brass, all RR.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
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Here are 3 that I imaged again this weekend. The Middlesex 416A is interesting in that it has different toning/patina on the obverse and reverse.
Best, SH
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One of the few Conder tokens I was able to acquire in the recent DNW sale.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Great thread!
My YouTube Channel
I got this small group in July:
My YouTube Channel
Nice to see the thread started back up
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Agreed, I will try to post one soon as well.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Nice to see this thread resurrected!
Purchased this little farthing token raw back in 2014. Now resides in an NGC MS64BN holder.
And another I have had since 2013, extremely common token in a sort-of uncommon grade:
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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Hampshire 85 by Westwood.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Lots of great pieces here. This is one of my recent additions.
Middlesex 24-Uniface pair. The reverse marks suggest they were glued together at some point.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
^^^^^ nice!
Shropshire
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
Somerset 112 farthing in brass, 24mm.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
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With such a prodigious bosom I'm surprised she can achieve lift off.
A very beautiful piece
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Angusshire Dundee #14
Purchased as a NGC63RBPL I felt the token was undergraded and also deserved a RD designator. Cracked out and submitted back to NGC, came back as 65RDPL.
The token surfaces are highly reflective and the NGC photo appears to have picked up color from the surrounding area. The token is a strong red. The NGC Photo Vision service occasionally seems to have problems with PL surfaces.
Collecting:
Conder tokens
19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
Here is a penny to re-invigorate this thread:
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Ayrshire 5, NGC MS66BN.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
Staffordshire Litchfield 28 farthing
2827394-004
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
This is a spectacular example, love it!
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Pair of uniface strikings of Middlesex 24 in silver (?),
NGC returned the obverse labeled Middlesex 23, "Obv. Die Trial Penny"- Ineligible Type (2810457-003).
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
My one and only. (MS63 BN).
A Middlesex penny with some nice details.
Conder Token Gallery https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMCiunai6NjOxoo3zREkCsAnNm4vONzieO3u7tHyhm8peZmRD_A0MXmnWT2dzJ-nw?key=Rlo2YklUSWtEY1NWc3BfVm90ZEUwU25jLUZueG9n
I think it was only the roof that was destroyed, which was an 1866 restoration in any case. I'm sure not only the roof was damaged (Gog and Magog burned too) but the stonework didn't need completely rebuilding.
An earlier cataloguer of these tokens was Samuel Birchall of Leeds, whose A Descriptive List of the Provincial Copper Coins or Tokens issued between the Years 1786 and 1796, based on his own collection, was two years ahead of James Conder. Perhaps it came too early, as it was seen as uncomprehensive with unsophisticated descriptions, despite including 1000 tokens. Even Conder's was superseded by Dalton and Hamer, so it was perhaps luck that his name is associated with them.
Even the Anglesey Druid halfpenny (1787) may not have been the first, as is often said. There's evidence that Colonel Charles Mordaunt, who owned a cotton mill in Halsall, Lancashire, asked Matthew Boulton of Soho, Birmingham to strike him some tokens as early as 1783 (known as the Halsall token).
I think the monarchy takes a bit of undeserved flack for refusing to have coins struck in copper (if they even refused at all, or would've been able to refuse). There were a lot of problems with copper, and it hadn't worked even though it had been attempted by James I, Charles I, Charles II, James II, William & Mary, Anne and Georges I-III before the crisis of the 1780-90s, while Charles II, James II and William and Mary tried tin, an even less noble metal at the time.
The need for a coin to be worth its face value and the ever-changing differential between the price of silver and copper made counterfeiting inevitable, since one or the other would be worth more for the metal content (and so better melted down and turned into a larger number of inferior coins). The price of copper at times meant the coins had to be huge to give them their full value, which was a big problem for Boulton too. The 1797 coins didn't resolve the issue in any case - tokens re-emerged in the 1810s. The solution only came with the introduction of the Gold Standard in 1821, when the value of the metal was de-coupled from the face value, and all coins could be made with materials worth less than face value.
@JohnConduitt thanks for your post and some new perspectives and information. The changing ratios between gold, silver, and copper coinage (if any) were certainly not a problem unique to Britain or the United States, were they? I never knew about the Halsall token before.
Kind regards,
George