Some outstanding pieces here. To think that some of these pieces made the 12,000 mile journey from San Francisco to Asia and back again when train travel was high tech is mind boggling. To think they made it 150 years through time during feast and famine makes them even more incredible.
How about one that was chopped at the mint?
Japan was leaving the silver standard. For a short window, they allowed their circulating silver coins to be redeemed for gold. Rather than melt their coins, they opted to ship them to other Asian governments who were still trading with silver. But they didn't want them to be redeemed again for gold. So they chopped them with the "silver" chop: right side for Tokyo, left side for Osaka:
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
Here is something you don't see everyday: A chopmarked gold zecchino from Venice; Doge Francisco Erizzo (1631-1646). A strongly suspect the chopmark is from Turkey or someplace in the Middle East. Does anyone have any information about this "chopmark?"
@DDR said:
Here is something you don't see everyday: A chopmarked gold zecchino from Venice; Doge Francisco Erizzo (1631-1646). A strongly suspect the chopmark is from Turkey or someplace in the Middle East. Does anyone have any information about this "chopmark?"
The U.S. Seated Dollar was initially devised as a coin for circulation at home. It was not initially designed for foreign trade, and ultimately failed at this purpose. It can however lay claim to it's place in numismatic history as the pre-cursor to my favorite series - the U.S. Trade Dollar. At 0.77344 oz. of silver, the U.S. Seated Dollar is of lower silver content than the Mexican Carolus dollar's 0.7858 oz., the preferred trade dollar of Chinese merchants at the time.
Because the Chinese merchants favored Mexican Carolus dollars the Mexican coins traded at a premium. In the western U.S., merchants and bankers paid a percentage to convert their silver into the Mexican coinage, in effect making the Chinese goods they were importing more expensive. At some point in the late 1850's, a group of merchants organized and approached San Francisco Mint officials about producing a U.S. silver dollar at the western mint. In 1859 the San Francisco mint produced the modest sum of 20,0000 Seated Dollars, the first silver dollar produced out west. It is believed that nearly all of the 20,000 mintage was exported to China. This 1859-S seated dollar is historically significant as, in my opinion, the first U.S. trade dollar albeit in an unofficial capacity.
It's worth noting that the Hal Walls Collection of World Trade Coins, sold by Paul J. Bosco in August 1997 had a chopmarked 1859-S Seated Dollar. It's the only other one I've heard of with Chopmarks.
Thanks for answering a question I've long had. The best I could get was a '59-S with a test (drill) mark on it. I'd never seen a chopped one before and thought it was perhaps only a mythical creature.
Has anyone seen a chopped '72-S? Inquiring minds want to know.
@Crypto said:
It seems that chops are currently relevant with strong prices realized and some major coins trading hand with even the Legand collection trading hands. I have always loved them as they are pure history in your hand and show the relics we collect actually were used for their intended purpose. Some also have the added benefit of have excaped the ravages of being messed with for so long due to their historically low value. Post them if you have them.
I like this one as it has classic test and merchant marks
Crypto, does your '75-CC I/II have a mark on the F in "OF"? I have one with the mark and one without, and I don't know which is scarcer.
Thanks for answering a question I've long had. The best I could get was a '59-S with a test (drill) mark on it. I'd never seen a chopped one before and thought it was perhaps only a mythical creature.
Has anyone seen a chopped '72-S? Inquiring minds want to know.
What does a chop mark do to a coin's value/grade? How often are chop marks counterfeited if at all? Are certain chop marks more valuable than others? I've heard of chop marks before but I assumed they would be considered cull.
Usually chopmarks lower a coin's value, but a genuine chopmark on a common and worn Morgan or Barber (for example) would make it more valuable. Yes, certain chops are more valuable than others. Relief chops (sometimes called "jeweler's chops") are usually valued higher.
@DDR said:
Here is something you don't see everyday: A chopmarked gold zecchino from Venice; Doge Francisco Erizzo (1631-1646). A strongly suspect the chopmark is from Turkey or someplace in the Middle East. Does anyone have any information about this "chopmark?"
Weren't the Middle Eastern punches called "shroff marks"? I have an ancient Egyptian silver coin with a small shroff mark or two.
@Toma said:
What does a chop mark do to a coin's value/grade? How often are chop marks counterfeited if at all? Are certain chop marks more valuable than others? I've heard of chop marks before but I assumed they would be considered cull.
A chop mark will typically lower a coin's value, the exception being if the type is particularly unusual to find with chops. Counterfeit chops are relatively uncommon right now, but if the community becomes larger, expect those numbers to start pumping. The prices paid for chopmarked Chinese coins have been climbing (even though the Chinese still do not consider chops themselves to be a collecting focus in their own right, the market for genuine Chinese coinage is reaching higher values, particularly on the Republic coinage and Dragon Dollars), and many ground-up fakes will have chops incorporated to lend an air of authenticity to them. Applying fake chops to genuine coins isn't terribly common from my experience (the dealer Hans Schulman applied several in the '60s, on a fairly large scale, though that's the exception), but there are several examples of coins that typically do not bear chops having clearly spurious marks added in order to increase their desirability. But since new genuine marks are being discovered all the time, a collector has to rely on knowing what marks correspond to each general time period, how the marks should appear to have circulation wear associated with them indicating circulation after application, etc.
Chops used to be considered cull coins, yes, but people are beginning to appreciate them for their historical perspective as artifacts, rather than condition exclusively. There are quite a few collectors interested in putting together the complete date set of US Trade Dollars with chops, and trying for a comprehensive set of world coins with the marks has been popular for some time as well.
@shirohniichan said:
Usually chopmarks lower a coin's value, but a genuine chopmark on a common and worn Morgan or Barber (for example) would make it more valuable. Yes, certain chops are more valuable than others. Relief chops (sometimes called "jeweler's chops") are usually valued higher.
Still looking for Barber pieces (among many others), but this is a relatively recent purchase:
@Crypto said:
It seems that chops are currently relevant with strong prices realized and some major coins trading hand with even the Legand collection trading hands. I have always loved them as they are pure history in your hand and show the relics we collect actually were used for their intended purpose. Some also have the added benefit of have excaped the ravages of being messed with for so long due to their historically low value. Post them if you have them.
I like this one as it has classic test and merchant marks
Crypto, does your '75-CC I/II have a mark on the F in "OF"? I have one with the mark and one without, and I don't know which is scarcer.
@Crypto said:
It seems that chops are currently relevant with strong prices realized and some major coins trading hand with even the Legand collection trading hands. I have always loved them as they are pure history in your hand and show the relics we collect actually were used for their intended purpose. Some also have the added benefit of have excaped the ravages of being messed with for so long due to their historically low value. Post them if you have them.
I like this one as it has classic test and merchant marks
Crypto, does your '75-CC I/II have a mark on the F in "OF"? I have one with the mark and one without, and I don't know which is scarcer.
I’ll take a look, all 75cc 1/2s are scarce.
I have a '75-CC that is so heavily chopped I couldn't tell if it was a type II reverse until I saw the die line across the "F" (which matched an unchopped I/II I have). I've only found two type II reverse dies used for '75-CC trade dollars.
Comments
My latest e-bay find
Cool one Dave.
Here's a neat one, with a combination of "Happy Wedding" paper chop, a banker's ink chop and traditional chop marks.
Think I'll hit this thread with the defibrillator.
Nice! As common as the 78-S are, they’re not easy to find nice, with chops.
Some outstanding pieces here. To think that some of these pieces made the 12,000 mile journey from San Francisco to Asia and back again when train travel was high tech is mind boggling. To think they made it 150 years through time during feast and famine makes them even more incredible.
How about one that was chopped at the mint?
Japan was leaving the silver standard. For a short window, they allowed their circulating silver coins to be redeemed for gold. Rather than melt their coins, they opted to ship them to other Asian governments who were still trading with silver. But they didn't want them to be redeemed again for gold. So they chopped them with the "silver" chop: right side for Tokyo, left side for Osaka:
--Severian the Lame
Here is something you don't see everyday: A chopmarked gold zecchino from Venice; Doge Francisco Erizzo (1631-1646). A strongly suspect the chopmark is from Turkey or someplace in the Middle East. Does anyone have any information about this "chopmark?"
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Wonder if that is like regulated gold
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
My only one.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Nice on sparky. That sure is a weak S!
Even United States Philippine pesos got chopped occasionally:
Philippines peso 1903-S with chop marks
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Took me a while to find it.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Here is my lonely graded LOWBALL example...
Thanks for answering a question I've long had. The best I could get was a '59-S with a test (drill) mark on it. I'd never seen a chopped one before and thought it was perhaps only a mythical creature.
Has anyone seen a chopped '72-S? Inquiring minds want to know.
Obscurum per obscurius
Crypto, does your '75-CC I/II have a mark on the F in "OF"? I have one with the mark and one without, and I don't know which is scarcer.
Obscurum per obscurius
A pair of chopmarked Seated Dollars were discussed on the Boards last year, nearly at the same time, one of which was an 1872-S. Here is the link to that thread: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/978973/chopmarked-1872-s-seated-liberty-dollar-pictures-are-added#latest.
The thread above mentions an example sold at Heritage in 2001, as well.
What does a chop mark do to a coin's value/grade? How often are chop marks counterfeited if at all? Are certain chop marks more valuable than others? I've heard of chop marks before but I assumed they would be considered cull.
Usually chopmarks lower a coin's value, but a genuine chopmark on a common and worn Morgan or Barber (for example) would make it more valuable. Yes, certain chops are more valuable than others. Relief chops (sometimes called "jeweler's chops") are usually valued higher.
Obscurum per obscurius
Weren't the Middle Eastern punches called "shroff marks"? I have an ancient Egyptian silver coin with a small shroff mark or two.
Obscurum per obscurius
A chop mark will typically lower a coin's value, the exception being if the type is particularly unusual to find with chops. Counterfeit chops are relatively uncommon right now, but if the community becomes larger, expect those numbers to start pumping. The prices paid for chopmarked Chinese coins have been climbing (even though the Chinese still do not consider chops themselves to be a collecting focus in their own right, the market for genuine Chinese coinage is reaching higher values, particularly on the Republic coinage and Dragon Dollars), and many ground-up fakes will have chops incorporated to lend an air of authenticity to them. Applying fake chops to genuine coins isn't terribly common from my experience (the dealer Hans Schulman applied several in the '60s, on a fairly large scale, though that's the exception), but there are several examples of coins that typically do not bear chops having clearly spurious marks added in order to increase their desirability. But since new genuine marks are being discovered all the time, a collector has to rely on knowing what marks correspond to each general time period, how the marks should appear to have circulation wear associated with them indicating circulation after application, etc.
Chops used to be considered cull coins, yes, but people are beginning to appreciate them for their historical perspective as artifacts, rather than condition exclusively. There are quite a few collectors interested in putting together the complete date set of US Trade Dollars with chops, and trying for a comprehensive set of world coins with the marks has been popular for some time as well.
Still looking for Barber pieces (among many others), but this is a relatively recent purchase:
I’ll take a look, all 75cc 1/2s are scarce.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Cool stuff, guys. Some completely unexpected chopmarked coins posted today, making for a very neat thread.
I am intrigued by chop marks on silver coinage. I hope to see some an the WFM next week in Philadelphia. Peace Roy
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Very sharp relief chop, @kaz!
Shiroh:
Good to hear from you again. Where have you been?
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
TLeverage:
Great pickup on the 1883-S chopmarked Morgan. Very cool!
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Working!
Obscurum per obscurius
I have a '75-CC that is so heavily chopped I couldn't tell if it was a type II reverse until I saw the die line across the "F" (which matched an unchopped I/II I have). I've only found two type II reverse dies used for '75-CC trade dollars.
Obscurum per obscurius
@shirohniichan..... Welcome back.....Good to see you posting again.....Cheers, RickO