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cc $20 gold piece in club auction

logger7logger7 Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

A coin club I am a member of has a numistrust certified "AU55" $20 Lib. in its auction coming up. The coin is not inspectable until the auction. I looked at some auction results, cleaned AU coins have sold around $2k. How bad is numistrust in higher value coins? Why would it be in their holder, not the market acceptable ones?

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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,538 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You can't trust Numistrust.

    Inspect with a very wary eye.

    bob:)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    Jinx86Jinx86 Posts: 3,671 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AUandAG said:
    You can't trust Numistrust.

    Inspect with a very wary eye.

    bob:)

    I would have to agree with this. Recently I have seen many lightly cleaned $20 CC's make it into problem free holders. I was offered a handful of them at ANA, had to pass on each of them.

    I think the Forum Motto is relevant. "Buy the coin not the holder." Also if you are not comfortable to decide the grade for yourself, I would think a local dealer should be willing to help you out, if they are attending.

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is likely a reason it is in that slab and not a top tier slab....so be sure you know the details or get someone to help you... Cheers, RickO

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    BStrauss3BStrauss3 Posts: 3,166 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NTC is known for overly optimistic grading. I usually call them Not This Coin as in "I'm sure there is a AU55 $20 gold piece somewhere, but not this coin".

    -----Burton
    ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had a chance to check out the coin in the "AU55" NTC holder. Coin was a badly scratched XF IMO, and that of a club dealer. No guarantee with NTC. "Grading is just and opinion" don't you know.

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    topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah, "club dealers."
    Chills up my spine from old memories.
    :/

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Make sure that it is genuine. Some of the "Uncle Elmer Certification Company" grades don't know any more than more than a guy who is pushing Jefferson Nickels into a Whitman album.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Make sure that it is genuine. Some of the "Uncle Elmer Certification Company" grades don't know any more than more than a guy who is pushing Jefferson Nickels into a Whitman album.

    Ohhhhh..."pushing."
    No wonder I was wrecking my albums.
    I was hammering. :o:p

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:

    @BillJones said:
    Make sure that it is genuine. Some of the "Uncle Elmer Certification Company" grades don't know any more than more than a guy who is pushing Jefferson Nickels into a Whitman album.

    Ohhhhh..."pushing."
    No wonder I was wrecking my albums.
    I was hammering. :o:p

    Yes, my grandmother, after I got her started collecting coins, tried using a little hammer to get some stubborn "pennies" in her Whitman folder, until I told her that was not a great idea.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As a kid, I used Scotch tape. :|

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yea, that worked too, especially on Roosevelt Dimes.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If someone wanted to cause NTC problems I would think complaints with the state AG or consumer's agency would be helpful: http://www.ntccoin.com/

    One of the club members was interested in the coin, bidding on it started at $2K, I strongly discouraged him.

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If someone wanted to cause NTC problems I would think complaints with the state AG or consumer's agency would be helpful:

    It's way too early to be doing something like that. You have to have grounds for a complaint.

    One of the club members was interested in the coin, bidding on it started at $2K, I strongly discouraged him.

    If he is bidding sight unseen, that is a very foolish move. Even if the coin is good, that won't improve his chances of winning it in the auction.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If someone wanted to cause NTC problems I would think complaints with the state AG or consumer's agency would be helpful:

    Remember grading is just an opinion, that is all. There have been coins in all manners of holders over the years including our hosts that have been subject to different opinions as to the accuracy of the grade. The third tier TPG's opinions of what the grade on a coin is typically don't line up with generally accepted grading standards hence any coin in a NTC etc. holder should be carefully evaluated prior to purchase to make sure the grade is what you expect, and that the price is consummate with your evaluation of the coin.

    The third tier graders can always come up with some 'panel of experts' to back up a grade that they have assigned to a coin as well as a large list of 'happy customers' to fend off / mitigate any legal action.

    Just a couple of Thursday thoughts!

    K

    ANA LM
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I looked at the coin at the auction with the other members. A badly scratched XF gold coin graded AU55 is fraud. They claim to have a group of graders who agree before a final grade is assigned. At least the club should have pulled the numerical grade from their listings, which does not permit members who are selling coins to include their own grades on the coins in the monthly auction.

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    ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One of the club members was interested in the coin, bidding on it started at $2K, I strongly discouraged him.

    Sounds like there might be room for some educational seminars at your CC meetings. Maybe not use the coin in question but there is plenty of other very overgraded coins in third tier holders that can be used as examples of what to look out for. Or just a general discussion of TPG's grade opinions and how they align with ANA grading standards.

    K

    ANA LM
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree; one club I am a member of allows collectors and dealers to put whatever grade they want on coins, resulting in some auction buyers at the meetings getting stuck unknowingly with improperly graded coins. On the other club, to have a problem coin straight graded by NTC creates other concerns as that club does not allow ungraded coins to be listed with numerical grades in their auctions.

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    ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2017 3:55PM

    If Numistrust is @centsles , AFAIK he's fine on authenticity.
    Basal values for uncleaned coins: a few in the 80's bid 2300 in VF and 2500-2600 in XF
    It doesn't sound appetizing. What did it bring? Think it was a reserve?

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Unless pcgs / NGC - pass - not worth it.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it's genuine, it's worth bidding on. Just don't get carried away.

    I have bid on many 3rd world slabs to support non-profits and charities.

    Just because it's in an undesirable holder doesn't mean there's no value.

    Just my eversohumble opinion.

    We now return you to our regularly scheduled insanity.

    Cheers

    Bob

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup said:
    If Numistrust is @centsles , AFAIK he's fine on authenticity.
    Basal values for uncleaned coins: a few in the 80's bid 2300 in VF and 2500-2600 in XF
    It doesn't sound appetizing. What did it bring? Think it was a reserve?

    The $20 cc did not sell, I dissuaded a club member who was interested. It was a seriously problem coin, a badly scratched EF, with the scratch extending over most of the lower part of the coin, and deep. A long drive up and back, there are no in hand descriptions available on auction items.

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    ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2017 8:02AM

    All the right moves :D

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell

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