Options
How does one value a chopmarked early dollar?
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
I want the coin but don't want to get buried pricewise. Typically I figure value is a grade lower than stated details on modest problem coins. Scratching my head on this one.
0
Comments
To the right person, it's worth more than an unchopped coin
Thanks, Bruce.
Figure at what number you would say I guess I really did not want it that bad, and then bid that (net after buyer's fee of course).
IMHO, I would carefully ask myself if that is a Chinese symbol of some sort, or whether or not it is is just damage or some other imperfection. Chop marks are like weeds or bugs or bad luck - it is odd to just encounter a single chopmark.
also rev rim damage....value depends on the buyer and interest in die varieties.
Based on the photo, the Chinese character is not identified-able. This is uncommon to typical chop marks.
If you know the history of chop mark coins, all chop marks should be read-able that the shop that put the chop mark onto the coin needs to take responsibility to guarantee its weight, silver content. In other words, last shop that put chop on must accept the coin if the coin circulated back to its shop. In this case, do you think un-read-able chop is acceptable in China at the time, especially, this is the very first chop.
Great advice. I am all in as high bidder. I'll sit back and watch.
I got beat by several increments. Thanks for the really good advice.
I normally don't disclose private messages but one guy said "plastics" and another whispered "Rosebud".
You're a fine young man, Benjamin.
I heard of someone who was considering putting in a couple of bids knowing there was going to be a Statue of Liberty bidder.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I love that coin, processed like most. Maybe filed and staple scratched but don't see what a fake chopmark would hide.
And do you know that the chop was done long ago and only several years ago? If recent, it would not mean much, would it? It would only be post mint damage.
>
Your comments are fair and should have been stated earlier without trying to set a trap.
I was outbid before posting and consulted with the forum for guidance. I had bid a comfortable price for a so called problem coin of that level. I was also aware that non trade dollars with chop marks can carry a premium. Based on TDN's comments I raised my bid. I was not in the market for a rip or a steal but a classic early Dollar with an interesting twist. Another bidder won it and congratulations to them if it is in fact worth $10,000.
I'll see if Montessori can help.
I liked the response better Glicker where you were talking about the five million in coins you have sold. Why did you edit?
If you ever need a coin fixed up, topstuf can help.
For those wondering, the final price was $3988.88, with 55 bids received. I believed the coin was interesting as a type, being the earliest U.S. coin that I have seen with a chop mark, and the only Draped Bust, Small Eagle Reverse, but was disappointed that it only bore a single, incomplete mark, and didn't have great eye appeal. Still, an interesting coin and I hope the buyer enjoys it.
Carrying over hurt feelings from the OFR? Buy a nice DCarr coin and you will feel better.
Afford....did you take the time to use GC;s enlargement feature?
Chop marked coins usually have a special market segment.... some love them, all the others avoid them. A strange form of PMD that is, in many cases, desirable. To each, his own...
Cheers, RickO
I would agree 4K is a deal for a chopped early dollar so one needs to ask why the other deep pocket chop collectors backed off?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
On a Trade Dollar, whose sole intended purpose as a circulating coin was to be used in the China trade, I would prefer a single, interesting, well-placed chop, and a few conventional character chops to provide provenance. On a unique host coin that is otherwise unknown with chops, I'd consider several marks that further support the coin's circulation in China to be more attractive.
On a unique host coin that is otherwise unknown with chops, I'd consider several marks that further support the coin's circulation in China to be more attractive.
A Manchurian CAC if you will.
I was the second underbidder and felt the coin ended a touch higher than I expected, but not out of line. As a collector of chopmarked coins by type, this coin was a perfect fit for my set. Although, the nice thing about the chopped type collection is that it's pretty open-ended, I don't HAVE TO have any one particular coin, and there are so many different types that I won't really run out of coins to pursue for a long time.
Here are my thoughts on the coin. If you bought the coin, don't take this as criticism, more like reasons I saved you money. Had the coin been different than what I outline below I would have gone much higher with my bids.
I do believe the chop was a legitimate Chinese chop based on looking at many, many legit Chinese Chops, but with the four strikes above I personally didn't feel it was one to stretch for. I've researched a lot of past auctions featuring trade/chopped coins and I've never run across a sale of this type, with chopmarks. Possibly unique so despite the flaws above, I may regret not stretching more. Congrats to the winner.
I do believe the mark on the coin in question to be a legitimate character chop, and I have seen several examples of legitimate chopmarked coins with a single chop, but whenever I see a particularly esoteric example with one chop, I tend to treat it with a grain of salt. Even with the mark being incomplete, this is still a particularly rare and interesting issue to find with a chop, and therefore important.
Tylically, I use my own judgement over any TPG in determining whether or not a claimed chop mark is in fact genuine, misattributed damage or an intentional forgery. Known details/markers, as on counterstamps and their corresponding Pridmore plate matches, cannot be applied to chops. Additionally, I differ with both grading services in their attribution of all drill marked coins as damaged; in my opinion, these served an identical purpose and oroginated from the same source, so should be considered a form of chop. Apart from that, I have seen a few scattered examples of PCGS coins in 'Chop Mark' holders, who exhibited counterstamps instead (Heritage had an example of an Oak Tree piece earlier this year fitting this description). The distinction does not seem entirely clear to them.
As to your other coins bearing single chops, I cannot provide my opinion without seeing them, but exhibiting just one chop certainly does not mean it is inauthentic.
I felt more comfortable with chopmarks as an interesting part of a coin’s history back in the days when chopmarks reduced the value of a coin. We seem to have entered an era when they increase the value, and with all due respect I feel that some collectors are being a bit naive.
As I see it, the same scrutiny that is applied to counterstamps must be applied to chopmarks, but it is more difficult since the chop is a single character. The questions I would have are:
1) Is the chop a valid symbol for a particular merchant (or is it a random Chinese character)?
2) Is the chop an authentic mark from that merchant (or a copy/counterfeit)?
3) Was the chop applied during the appropriate time period (even if it is a valid punch from an actual merchant, was it applied recently)?
Many collectors study wear patterns etc. to satisfy themselves on point #3, but how many are knowledgeable enough to answer #1, much less #2? In the case of an incomplete chop, how can #1 and #2 possibly be answered?
I think I have a chopmarked 8 reales somewhere, and I wish I had collected more chopped coins back before they became popular. They are full of history and worth collecting, but if they now add value I expect that authenticity will become an issue (if it has not happened already).
Having trouble with links, but an image is attached. Check the Heritage records for early this year.
@JBK, your concerns are certainly valid, and one of the reasons that many many chop mark collectors (including myself) have an inherent distrust of new "rarities" entering the market, as well as the reason behind the appeal of coins from old, published collections, such the Rose and Walls sets. Also why I choose to focus mostly on U.S. Trade Dollars, given that chopped examples still trade at a fairly substantial discount.
What I'm both excited and concerned about is the Chinese market for chopmarked coins. In China, chopped coins have always been treated as damaged, but given their substantial historical value, I believe one day they will become popular among the Chinese themselves (look at the premium early U.S.-marked foreign gold brings). When that day comes, prices will likely rise substantially, especially for the unusual pieces, but the market will become flooded with fakes, which is why it is important that current collectors document their sets, for the benefit of future chop mark collectors.
Hey realone, if you like it then you should enjoy it. Don't let me rain on your parade, seriously.
As a footnote, it should be noted, that PCGS will typically only list a single problem, even if the coin has multiple problems. In my experience, they will list "Chopmark" (which is given the code number for "damage") and leave it at that, even if the coin is ALSO blatantly cleaned, artificially toned, etc. I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea based on your comments about this coin.
Well put, and this is why I've upped my game in tracking down the history of the chopmarked coins I collect. I'm fortunate enough to have a few coins from the Frank Rose collection and documentation to prove it. Frank wrote the original book on Chopmark coin collecting and as a merchant marine brought a bunch of them back from China etc. himself back in the 50-60's. I'm more leery of some of the recent stuff that's been showing up at auctions.
When I initially bid on the coin I considered the PCGS opinion valid. After being outbid I was hesitant to bring an active auction to the forum as that is frowned upon by many but as I had serious interest in the coin and would not have bid higher without some opinions, I started the thread. I value TDN's opinion highly but also noted the concerns of other regular posters and bid a higher but comfortable figure that was outbid handily in the last 5 minutes.
I would value the coin similarly if the opportunity once again presented itself.
The coin sold for just under $1000. I was simply using this as an example to substantiate my claim that PCGS (and other TPGs) do not always understand the distinction between a chop mark and a generic domestic countermark.
these two CM threads are quite educational
Interesting discussion on one of my favorite topics. I would really like to own that coin but, as I expected, it went for more than I was willing to pay.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Agreed, great thread. To think, 5 years ago at small shows in my area dealers couldn't give chop marked trade dollars away in graded PCGS holders, had I known what this thread has taught me...............
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
This thread is a good chance to plug the Chopmark Collectors Club. Basically free to join and the newsletter is high quality and includes many topics similar to this thread. It’s usually published a few months late, 3-4 times a year but worth the wait. PM me if you’d like more info.