Acetone?

Tradernik

I have a lot of work to do staring at the screens trying to get a handle on grading. Thought I'd just ask about acetone here instead of searching.

Over on the CC forums, someone posts a pic of his latest Buff, bought raw. It has some green discoloration and someone else says 'A little acetone will get rid of that' and the guy comes back with pics 'after 10 hours in the acetone'. Green stuff almost all gone.

But isn't that considered cleaning? If he submits that to PCGS for grading isn't it going to come back.. .what's the dreaded designation? Details (92), is it?

EDIT: Someone else suggested Verdi Care? But isn't all of this cleaning? And therefore forbidden if you want the coin to retain value?

BruceS

There has been countless threads talking about conserving vs cleaning. Most don't consider dipping to be cleaning in the sense you are talking about.

If you do not currently know the difference. You should probably do a quick search here, and I guarantee you'll be reading for the next week, at least, but you will learn a ton.

lkeigwin

Conservation with acetone, which has no effect on metal, is not considered cleaning. It simply remove organic matter. Whether a coin is later judged "cleaned" is another matter. Sometimes removing substances reveals problems underneath.

VerdiCare, like CoinCare and Blue Ribbon, is generally considered non-invasive. They will not damage the surface of coins but sometimes the TPG's object because they can enhance their appearance. For the most part they are simply lubricants with some cleansing properties.
Lance.

davewesen

when you get back a PVC coin on a submission, you will have wished you spent 10 minutes with acetone

Tradernik

Okay, so I'm assuming a pro acetone job (now I know what 'dipping' is) shouldn't technically affect grade for TPGs unless it reveals other problems underneath.

Thanks for the info. I'll search the forums when I get some time.

Tradernik

I suppose there's no harm in saying this since I don't have any rep here anyway... and I'm sure this will be sacrilege to some.. but unless the coin looks awful and scrubbed and abraded, I'm not sure I see the huge issue with cleaning on a pre-1900 coin. I mean these are still incredible artifacts, pieces of history. Just because someone rubbed the grime off it, I don't personally feel like it's that much less cool than one that hasn't been cleaned.

I'm starting to see Details coins coming up at auction and selling so I've understood that they still have value for some.

ShadyDave

Yes, but I think you might be missing the point of acetone. Pure acetone is pretty safe to use. It is good to get rid of PVC, glue, gunk and other physical matter. It won't affect a coin like silver dip can.

If you abrasively clean a coin it will lose a lot if not all of its numismatic value.

Get a Pyrex glass, make sure you have good ventilation, no flames nearby and put the coin into the acetone for 10 minutes. Flip it over and give it another 10

Use distilled water to was it off after to ensure there is no residue left over and let the coin air dry. Acetone should remove any organic matter like glue, paint, dirt, pvc, putty etc.

lkeigwin

Some collectors feel the same. You can save a lot of money buying a coin hairlined from abrasive cleaning that is otherwise a splendid example of an historical coin.

Rarely will it draw enough attention from most collectors. Buy it because you love it regardless of whether you will ever recover your cost.
Lance.

BruceS

Again, cleaning vs conserving, there is a difference in the eyes of collectors and the TPGs. The only sacrilege in your statment is the rubbed part, rubbing, wiping etc... causes hairlines and hence the details grade in a lot of the cases.

The market and the TPGs generaly frown apon detail graded coins. Do they sell, yes, Do they sell for less. Yes. Depending on the Rarity, some times a lot less. I don't mean to be repetitive, but there is a difference between the two.

Tradernik

@BruceS said:
Again, cleaning vs conserving, there is a difference in the eyes of collectors and the TPGs. The only sacrilege in your statment is the rubbed part, rubbing, wiping etc... causes hairlines and hence the details grade in a lot of the cases.
I don't mean to be repetitive, but there is a difference between the two.

No, the difference you're pointing out is important for me to understand.

@ShadyDave said:
Yes, but I think you might be missing the point of acetone. Pure acetone is pretty safe to use. It is good to get rid of PVC, glue, gunk and other physical matter. It won't affect a coin like silver dip can.

Ah okay. I'll make sure I understand the difference between a silver dip and an acetone ... dip, right? I'm so new, I was unaware of the term 'silver dip' but I'll do my homework and figure it out.

In any case, I had an amazing talk with the owner of a small LCS here just a few days back. He took a long time to talk and answer a bunch of questions about grading. I would probably ask him for help on this the first time. Thanks a lot for the step-by-step instructions.

Tradernik

@lkeigwin said:
Some collectors feel the same.

Buy it because you love it regardless of whether you will ever recover your cost.

>
Good advice. I'll try to remember it.

fullstepnickels

I have used acetone for years to conserve coins. Any coin exposed to the environment will be
contaminated to some degree with organic matter which over time will cause damage to the coin.
I call it preventative maintenance when storing coins for any length of time. I have cracked out
slabbed coins that were sealed with contamination that over time created spots when left unchecked,
damaged the surface of the coin and its value. IMO, all slab houses should "de-contaminate a coin"
before slabbing it. For the price you pay for slabbing, it should be included in the price.

Insider2

@Tradernik

The difference between cleaning and conservation is a really easy concept to understand. When someone with the experience to know what they are doing looks at the surfaces of a coin and it looks natural without any evidence of cleaning, the coin is either 100% untouched or 100% properly cleaned (conserved).

When you can tell the surface of the coin is not original, then you need to determine why based on what you see. There are degrees to everything on coins, Degrees of mishandling, cleaning, toning, etc. There are also degrees of knowledge and eyesight among the folks who will examine the coin.
Have fun, you have a lot of reading to do.

@fullstepnickels said: "IMO, all slab houses should "de-contaminate a coin" before slabbing it. For the price you pay for slabbing, it should be included in the price."

You are over three decades late to the party! I started making this suggestion, and continued to make this suggestion every chance I had up until NCS was started. No one wished to do what you suggested due to the liability issues."

ChrisH821

This is 'dip'. Much different than acetone, dipping a coin will remove oxides of silver(producing a bright white coin), acetone will remove gunk. I'll add confusion and mention there is also a product called MS70 that works similar to acetone but in certain cases will remove what even acetone cannot.
All of these should be used properly and with caution.

ricko

I have been on this forum since the late nineties......and dipping, cleaning, conserving have been a topic of discussion continuously. The information above is quite accurate regarding acetone.... never a problem to remove organic residues...It could, however, expose underlying issues. Dipping that removes tarnish will also remove some of the metal that has joined with the sulfurs/oxides....this can affect luster and make a coin look 'dead' on the surface. Research here on old threads can be very informative.... that being said, personal experimentation is also a great way to learn. Cheers, RickO

Tradernik

Really appreciate the time taken to respond here, especially since this information has been posted in response to noob questions already.

@Insider2 said:

The difference between cleaning and conservation is a really easy concept to understand. When someone with the experience to know what they are doing looks at the surfaces of a coin and it looks natural without any evidence of cleaning, the coin is either 100% untouched or 100% properly cleaned (conserved).
When you can tell the surface of the coin is not original, then you need to determine why based on what you see.
Have fun, you have a lot of reading to do.

Going to try to start doing some of that reading this weekend. I've seen coins where I know the surface is altered in some way. Really, what I'm figuring out is that for me, going after raw coins that represent value is really fun and a good challenge. I want to grab a raw coin and have it grade well. I have to be able to recognize the evidence of and type of cleaning. Man, I thought grading was a tough nut to crack.

@ChrisH821 said:
This is 'dip'. Much different than acetone, dipping a coin will remove oxides of silver(producing a bright white coin), acetone will remove gunk. I'll add confusion and mention there is also a product called MS70 that works similar to acetone but in certain cases will remove what even acetone cannot.

Thanks for the link Chris

@ricko said:
I have been on this forum since the late nineties......and dipping, cleaning, conserving have been a topic of discussion continuously. The information above is quite accurate regarding acetone.... never a problem to remove organic residues...It could, however, expose underlying issues. Cheers, RickO

I've been reading about how the pendulum has swung a long way in the direction of cleaning = bad. There's some small part of me that wonders 'What if, in 20 or 30 years, these coins from the 1800s that are in details holders and selling at steep discounts to comparables because of cleaning were suddenly seen to be what (to me, anyway) they are? Incredible old artifacts and pieces of history that aren't significantly less valuable than another of the same type that hasn't been 'cleaned' (to whatever extent the TPG thought that the process had affected the coin)?' I'm talking now about coins where the cleaning process hasn't altered the surfaces to a great extent but they're still in Details holders because technically, they've been cleaned. A part of me wants to start queitly buying those coins and stashing them away, waiting for the pendulum to swing back.

Also, thanks for the suggestion. I realized that I can just get a few cheap coins and try this out.

Thanks again guys. I'll use the Search function and get more info.