lots of 1794 half dollars on the market

carabonnair

I see that Heritage has 23 1794 half dollars in their [Denver ANA] auction. That seems like way more than usual - is someone selling a hoard?

There are 7 1795s which looks normal. Stack's has 8 flowing hair half dollars, all 1795.

Treashunt

unusually high number, must be a hoard

amwldcoin

If that's the case that is just plain stupid!

BryceM

I saw that too. If you ever wanted one, now's your chance......

CoinPhysicist

If only I had the means to purchase one of them

TommyType

I looked at the pops. In ALL grades:
500 PCGS
340 NGC

So those 23 coins work out to 2.7% of the certified population of the top TPG's. (Yeah, I know the pops may be wrong due to resubmission).

But really, that's a pretty healthy chunk of any one date/MM to be on sale all at once. (The "great rarities" not considered).

The scary thought:
While one might think it smart to sell these 23 over a 3 or 5 year span.....What if the seller is really trying to slowly disperse a much larger hoard, and this is just the first batch of a couple hundred of them?

Added:
I pulled up the listing at Collectors Corner, (http://www.collectorscorner.com/Category/Category.aspx?catId=721&pId=12), and there are by my count 13 for sale from NON-Heritage sources....most of lower grade than the Heritage lots, and most being sold by some of the biggest retail dealers in the country. Would that be considered an unusually large number? Part of the same disbursal?

CoinPhysicist

@TommyType said:
I looked at the pops. In ALL grades:
500 PCGS
340 NGC

So those 23 coins work out to 2.7% of the certified population of the top TPG's. (Yeah, I know the pops may be wrong due to resubmission).

But really, that's a pretty healthy chunk of any one date/MM to be on sale all at once. (The "great rarities" not considered).

The scary thought:
While one might think it smart to sell these 23 over a 3 or 5 year span.....What if the seller is really trying to slowly disperse a much larger hoard, and this is just the first batch of a couple hundred of them?

Added:
I pulled up the listing at Collectors Corner, (http://www.collectorscorner.com/Category/Category.aspx?catId=721&pId=12), and there are by my count 13 for sale from NON-Heritage sources....most of lower grade than the Heritage lots, and most being sold by some of the biggest retail dealers in the country. Would that be considered an unusually large number? Part of the same disbursal?

21 of them are from The Terry Brand Estate Part III.

It's possible he has more parts... These are almost all pretty low grade with a few mid grades and no high grades. I would find it hard to believe someone has 21 1794 half dollars in low grades and not a single one in high grades. Just speculation.

10000lakes

I did a search of past auction lots at HA for Terry Brand in early halves.

It turned up 14 that have sold this year, including 3 VF and a XF.

https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Price%7C1&Ne=304&N=51+790+231+314&Ntt=terry+brand&expand=Coin+Category&ic4=Refine-CoinCategory-102615#expand-304

291fifth

It seems like an unusually high number of offerings for a "rare" date. Look for the examples with the least eye-appeal to stumble in the auction.

topstuf

I'd expect a LOT of early coin sales. CAC doesn't like them so why keep them to find a lousy market for SALE in a while?

Regulated

Terry was hoarding these when he passed away. He was a great guy, and its a shame to see them sold this way.

cnncoins

In absolute terms, the 1794 50c is not really rare (although certainly numismatically desirable). You can locate several at any major coin show. As a 1st year issue they are widely collected, and certainly rarer than the 1795 half. I purchased a hoard of 20 1794 50c in the mid 1990's from a dealer estate (grades were from AG with problems to VF/EF problem free). I sold them all intact to a good dealer friend, Steve Leiber, who at the time was buying coins for Terry Brand (he was hoarding 1794 halves). Sadly neither Steve or Terry are with us today, but as for 1794 halves in general, there seems to be more supply on the market than demand. My guess is that dealer cash flow has forced a greater number to sell via auction since the lower grade coins are currently slower selling inventory items, especially in the grades below F/VF.

ricko

Looks as if it may be a good time to pick one up as a significant historical piece... Just nice to have one in a collection... Cheers, RickO

BillJones

None of them are particularly nice. A couple of them intrigued me although one of those probably has a letter scratched into the field, which would bug me. The 1794 half dollar is a historic coin, and it does offer an opportunity for the collector of lesser means to own a piece that was made just a month after the 1794 dollar, which now costs a fortune, even when it has problems.

I do have an high grade (AU-50) 1794 half dime, but all of those coins were struck in 1795.

carabonnair

@10000lakes said:
I did a search of past auction lots at HA for Terry Brand in early halves.

It turned up 14 that have sold this year, including 3 VF and a XF.

Thanks everyone for the input. I didn't put 2+2 together. Looks like Terry Brand had quite a collection. The XF you mention (sold at Central States) is the finest known for the variety, 1794 O-107. His O-107 in Denver has the Jules Reiver pedigree.

@Regulated - would like to have known Terry Brand.

ColonelJessup

@cnncoins said:
In absolute terms, the 1794 50c is not really rare (although certainly numismatically desirable). You can locate several at any major coin show. As a 1st year issue they are widely collected, and certainly rarer than the 1795 half. I purchased a hoard of 20 1794 50c in the mid 1990's from a dealer estate (grades were from AG with problems to VF/EF problem free). I sold them all intact to a good dealer friend, Steve Leiber, who at the time was buying coins for Terry Brand (he was hoarding 1794 halves). Sadly neither Steve or Terry are with us today, but as for 1794 halves in general, there seems to be more supply on the market than demand. My guess is that dealer cash flow has forced a greater number to sell via auction since the lower grade coins are currently slower selling inventory items, especially in the grades below F/VF.

Terry also owned part of the King of Siam set with Iraj Sayah.
He also, IIRC, bought 1850 $20's.
He and Steve are missed.

Nysoto

Yes, unwinding of a hoard. When I was buying 1794-1807 half dollars by die variety, 5-20 years ago, 1794's were difficult to get and prices kept climbing from the hoarding. They have leveled in price, and some lower than expected prices on these auctions - not surprising.

CoinPhysicist

To bump an old thread... it looks like there is another 36 1794 Half Dollars in the FUN sale... It's like the supply of them is never ending.

AngryTurtle

Did a search for 1794, and lots of 1794 1C as well.

carabonnair

I watched part of the FUN sale online. I think a few of them were good deals, although I didn't buy any since I am saving for something else.

Gluggo

@BryceM said:
I saw that too. If you ever wanted one, now's your chance......

What is the base average price on one of these? Just wondering. Not like I am going to go buy one.

Oops never mind I just found the link above on past auctions. I sort of find it hard to pay 1 to 2 K on a coin 1/2 worn out but it would be neat to own something that old.

I wonder if there are any Haunted Coins that old out there. Would that command a higher amount?

CoinPhysicist

I also watched the FUN sale of these yesterday. I didn't buy one but I too think there were some deals to be had. I'd like to get one if I find the right one at the right price, but I didn't see the perfect one for me in this sale. I also didn't get to see the lots in person. I wonder if this was the last of them... But who knows.

Zoins

Were there any good deals the last time around?

carabonnair

The VF-AU coins are in tonight's auction, lots 4838 - 4848
for reference, the CPG values are $25,000 to $105,000

jesbroken

Would selling that many at one time not deflate the value somewhat? Out of my price range, regardless, so not an important factor for me. Would be nice to own one, but so would I like to have an AU 1916 Double Die Buff.
Jim

Elmhurst

There's also 5 or 6 1796 quarters in this months auctions

carabonnair

For the record, another 38 or so in the upcoming Long Beach sale next month. Includes an Overton 110, which is a rarity-7.

specialist

congrats to heritage for making 1794 halves widgets!

mvs7

When this thread first came out, a bunch of us were wondering why dump them on the market all at once and not disburse them over several years... looks like they were disbursing them over several years and we were just off on the extent on the horde.

golden

There has also been a ton of 1795 Half Dollars coming out from Heritage. Almost certainly from the same owner.

CoinPhysicist

It's absolutely amazing how many 1794 half dollars have been sold in the past 14 months. How many more can possibly be left in this horde? Gosh I almost want to try to get one now, it feels like the perfect time. But I know if I try to get one, there will probably be a ton left

northcoin

Now if we could just get a hoard of 1794 Dollars to flood the market and bring the price down.

ColonelJessup

@specialist said:
congrats to heritage for making 1794 halves widgets!

It would have always happened this way. Terry never had a plan for selling. See his 600+ piece 1844 10c hoard for reference. He was more an enthusiastic accumulator than a collector.
Wait for the 1850 $20's to disburse.
@cnncoins, is this recollection about the $20's accurate?

Treashunt

If another 2,00 or so come out at once the price may drop enough for me to buy one.

But probably not

carabonnair

I thought it might be interesting to make a count of the Terry Brand 1794 half dollars so far. The Philadelphia ANA sale will include Terry Brand Estate, Part XI. It includes the rare O-110
I count 205 pieces so far.
By variety:
O-101 34
O-101a 97
O-102 (none)
O-103 6
O-104 30
O-105 15
O-105a 2
O-106 9
O-107 11
O-108 (none)
O-109 (none)
O-110 1

I could be off a bit, let me know if you find errors.

CoinPhysicist

If you count all the 1794 halves, not only from the Terry Brand estate, the number is even higher. I'm not sure if your count includes all or just Terry Brand's estate. I mention this because if memory serves me right, there was a PCGS G4 O-110 that sold within the past year and that would at least bring the O-110 number up to 2. Some of these coins have also been sold twice in the past year, once in the Terry Brand and then again at HA by others (oftentimes for losses).

lkeigwin

Bummer. The value of my F15 has plummeted.
Lance.

carabonnair

@lkeigwin said:
Bummer. The value of my F15 has plummeted.
Lance.

Yours is high quality - nice. I doubt it has plummeted. Is it OK if we show the photo you did of the O-108 in Sheridan's upcoming sale?

That's a really great coin.

topstuf

I sold the only one I had. KINDA wish I'd kept it as the prices still aren't down to what I paid.
Problem is that so few are the sort you want to GAZE at.

They're the "okay, got that one....stick it in the box" kind.

GoBust

Really look for quality here and then pounce. Great time to snag some tougher marriages too. All but the O-110 seem available. The O-110 retains its R7 status.

Catbert

I know it’s sacrilege, but the type does not get me excited.

topstuf

Waiting for the hoard of Flowing Hair DOLLARS

Along

Interesting stuff - thanks for sharing

DanielBoone

For whatever reason there have been quite a few available on the market over the last year or so. There were actually more 1794's in the 2018 FUN auction (I counted 34)!!!

CoinPhysicist

I wonder how many more of these are going to be sale. Eventually this horde has to end... But it feels like the bottomless 1794 half dollar horde. Maybe someone is going back in time and just transporting more of them here.

That being said, I agree that this is the time to pick up a quality one. I did so myself

Edit: That O-108 is pretty sweet, too bad money doesn't grow on trees

Regulated

Just got this one:

Doesn't seem like many AUs have been around, despite the glut of lower grades...

CoinPhysicist

@Regulated said:
Just got this one:

Doesn't seem like many AUs have been around, despite the glut of lower grades...

.... Wow.

msch1man

Despite the seemingly endless parade of lower to mid-grade 1794's, there hasn't seemed to be very many that strike me as particularly eye appealing (then again, I haven't viewed any of them in hand). I'm amazed to see the quantity, but I guess I've been underwhelmed by the quality. That being said, if you find one you like, it certainly seems like a good time to buy one.

GoBust

Related that is a very lovely and exceptional 1794. Congratulations!

carabonnair

I forgot the O-111 which remains unique, as does the O-109 in silver (and sold for $700K). The R-7s seem to be holding their rarity well. Collecting these by variety remains daunting. Nice condition pieces are rare, as has been mentioned, and probably strongly held by date collectors.

CoinPhysicist

Looks like there is only 1 1794 half for sale in the upcoming Chicago auction, an o-106 anacs net graded F15.