1804 1/2 Cent, Crosslet 4, Stems: crack and resubmit, ship to NGC, or sell as is
DMWJR
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I have an 1804 1/2 Cent Crosslet 4, Stems (C-10) I bought in an NGC MS63 holder probably 15 years ago. I wanted it in a PCGS holder for the set I was doing, but I was just doing a general type set and new very little about grading this series. I still haven't studied it.
It was submitted to PCGS at any grade and it came back AU55 to my horror at the time. Well, I liked the coin, so I kept it anyway. Now I am ready to dispose of it, and can't decide if I should:
A. Sell as is, PCGS Price Guide in AU55 = $875
B. Crack resubmit to NGC, NGC Price guide in MS63 = $3,400
C. Crack and resubmit to PCGS, hoping to get PCGS MS60 $1,500, OE PCGS 63, PCGS price guide $3,500.
What would you do?
Doug
1
Comments
You have an example of an 1804 Cohen 10, which is the most common crosslet 4, stems variety. It is an R-1 variety.I think that the PCGS grading at AU-55 is harsh for the coin. The trouble is this coin was struck from badly rusted dies, which gives the piece a "scruffy" look. It might very well be a Mint State coin as the NGC graders said it was, but perhaps not as high as MS-63. I would have to the coin in person to really grade it.
I am really out of the loop so far as pricing this material. I have not purchased one of these half cents in over decade. I think that the piece is under graded, but I don’t know if an NGC slab would help you get more money for it.
Perhaps and active EAC member could give a better perspective.
Here's PCGS' photos of the coin, which may help others chime in with their opinions:
Beautiful coin. IMHO, AU-55 too strict but I'm no expert. Crack it out and sell it to a major dealer. They know it will get graded MS-63 or MS-64 and will pay accordingly. Or, find a coin you like in a slab and use your coin + cash or straight trade. Bargain for a trade value between $1500 and $2500 to leave lots of room for the dealer.
Bottom line is market grade is what the holder is really saying an opinion of that. I Do think it is a mint state coin. I would re-submit to PCGS one more time MS60-62 has to be fair here. Should the coin stay near the current grade I would go NGC and then sell the coin. The coin seems to be the victim of a grade error in that the variety and known strike conditions were not considered.
WOW. I did it so long ago I didn't know they took a picture of it. I thought I submitted it around the time Phil took the job with PCGS. Never resubmitted it again. Thanks Cardinal!
Those two bright red spots have faded a lot since that picture was taken. That is really a cool look back in time for me
Funny, my collecting habits at the time were to pick either a first year of issue or an interesting date in the series for a type set. I eventually sold most of them including a 1793 half cent in xf that was gorgeous ... almost wish I had that one back.
From the new bigger, better picture, I would say that it is a Mint State coin that was struck with rusty dies. Graders who are more comfortable with later U.S. coins might not be able to fathom the subtleties of an early coin like this which was struck under primitive conditions.
In his book Roger Cohen speculated that this coin may have been struck after one of the yellow fever epidemics in Philadelphia. If the dies were not stored properly in the humid Philadelphia, rust would be the result.
I would take to an EAC dealer, they would certainly know it's better than AU.
They know too much. IMO, you would get a larger offer from a non-copper specialist dealer.
Not necessarily. Some collectors look for die states, and if this one is hard to find in high grade, you might get a surprise. This coin could bring more as a variety and die State than as a type coin. The type coins are the 1804 Plan 4, Stemless, the 1806 Small 6, Stemless and 1806 Large 6, Stems.
I may check around. Early copper guys are a different breed. I've had good offers and bad offers from them.
I thought this is an R-1 coin. I'll bet every copper dealer owns an AU or three. This coin is going to sell as an Unc. It's a good bet that most US dealers don't own one - even in XF.
The way it is with early copper now is that very few dealers, other than the specialists, have very much inventory.
I think @BillJones nailed it...PCGS can be brutal on this particular variety. I own an 1804 C-10 that is PCGS graded as an XF-45 that is easily an AU-53 if not 55.
Based on the photos, I agree your piece is MS. As far as maximizing the value when selling it, unfortunately, I think it'll have to find it's way into an MS holder to get an MS price...that stinks, but I think that's the reality. You might also consider consider sending it to CAC where it could very likely get a Gold sticker.
That's all good advice. I'm not trying to max this one out, I just want a reasonable number. I just think for $875, I would just keep it.
An alternative is to join EAC and put it in their auction. That would take a year, and of course there are no guarantees, but they do get some very good results, which I know first hand. I know this from personal experience.
I don't know if there is a requirement as to how long you have to belong to EAC to consign. I think that there is.
Just a quick reaction to the photo, but it looks like a LDS Unc and should grade so at the TPGs. I would crack and re-submit. I am a member of EAC, though by no means an expert. If you put it into an EAC auction or brought it to an EAC dealer, an EAC person may price it the same in either holder, or nearly the same. My gut reaction is that it would garner an EAC grade of 58 or 60 BN, again, just from a quick look at the pics.
Tom
pretty coin and one I wouldn't mind owning
That is a very nice coin... very early copper and exudes history.... I would keep it.... If you sell the coin, regrets will follow as sure as the sun rises in the morning. Cheers, RickO
Indeed a very nice coin!
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Everyone is all over the map on grading copper.
I own an 1839 Head of 40 purchased from Tom Reynolds as XF45, that NGC later slabbed MS61, then PCGS slabbed it AU53. The coin has a trace of friction, but luster and some traces of original red on the reverse. I recently saw another of the same date/grade posted that looks like an XF compared to my coin.
Yours may be one of those rare examples where the EAC grade is higher than the PCGS grade LOL!
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Walkerguy, that would be a first ... an EAC grade higher than the other two!
resubmit. it will go ms
The current grade on the holder is unacceptable. I'd crack it in a heartbeat and resubmit it back to PCGS. If it gets market graded again then you're only recourse is NGC. You need to put the coin before a very experienced grader to get a fair grade.
I'd send it to the other service; when screwed by one I don't give them the chance to do it to me again with the same coin.
Ok, I have some other raw coins to submit so I am going to crack it and resubmit to PCGS. I'll report back
Someone on the BST might give you 1000 for it as is.
I would resubmit or sell to someone who will pay you a premium for the coin's quality.
I'm no EAC pro, but 55 sounds insanely brutal. There wouldn't be any hurt (other than of course the grading fee) in cracking the coin and subbing it.
Either send to CAC which might catch a gold which would vastly improve the selling price OR crack and resubmit to PCGS.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
She's a good looker. I like it as-is, in the early, solid gasket holder.
Why such a HUGE gap in price guide values for the same AU55 grade???
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My bad ... NGC price guide is for MS63, not AU55. I'll correct my original post.
Exactly.
This is the easiest way where you keep the majority of any grade bumps. I would submit up to 2X at each service until you get it back in a 62/63 holder. The grading fees are trivial for such a grade bump. Then submit to CAC. No point in selling it in an AU55 holder (or getting CAC gold) as no one is going to give you 62/63 money for that. If it made 63 at NGC years ago....it should do it again... maybe even higher.