And yet another thread about "I think I found a Matte Proof Lincoln"............
bolivarshagnasty
Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here goes................... Ebay purchase in a TPG mint state slab. Received it and pitched it in a drawer for a few days. Started studying the coin last night. Got out Flynn's reference book I bought when he was selling them here. Difficult to see the rims in the slab, but found three diagnostic match points on the obverse of the coin. The parallel die scratches below the number 1 in the date progressing up at an angle to the first 9. A "V" shaped die scratch inside the loop of the first 9 that matches one of Flynn's pics. The third marker found was the chipped die with a slight amount of the upper right "O" in "GOD" missing. So I was a bit excited about the finds, but as we all know, it's about the rims.
Took photos of the intact slab this evening before summarily crushing the slab and extricating the Lincoln without damaging it. First look at the rims looked promising. Sharp edges but irregular due to the heavy finning in places. Brought the coin upstairs and was delighted to stand the coin on it's edge on the first try on the copy stand. Two photos below of the edge of the coin standing upright.
So now you have the information. I believe it to be a genuine matte proof. Please feel free to point out something I may be missing. I do not own a dynalite or equivalent, so I won't be able to provide close ups of the die scratches mentioned earlier. I will be sending the coin to PCGS in the near future for their authentication. As they say in the South, " A blind hog finds an acorn every now and then". Hoping this is my acorn. LOL
Comments
MS65+RB.
Beard, hair, letters, numbers, inside of rims...... None are as sharp or as square as a proof. If I could linkify to any lot in Auction Archives it would be obvious.
I'm not ready for this thread!
Sorry, but it doesn't look like a proof to me.
Here's a link to a PR-66 that sold at Heritage
Agree with the Colonel, which is an awfully good thing to do; the 1916 Lincoln is often found in MS struck like a beast.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I would say not a proof because of the rims. It is a nice 16 though.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Very nice coin, but the surfaces do not look correct to me for a matte proof unfortunately.
At least this is a lot more "matte-proof-like" than the other post this past week.
I was looking at the Heritage specimen and it appears to have more grainy fields than yours. Certainly I'm not an expert.
Later, Paul.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Can someone explain how a business strike would end up with some of the die markers from a proof? Master hub used for both Proof and Business strikes? I ran into this same scenario once before with a 1915 Lincoln.
Based solely on the rims, I would say it is not a proof... but you already have enough input on that issue. Cheers, RickO
I'm fairly certain that proof dies were used to strike some business cents -- I've had a couple of 1916's that had a few die markers on the obverse but nothing on the reverse. And the rims were bad.
HA just sold this. I badly wanted it.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Mel: I am confident you have already looked at True View specimens, but I want to point out that on the 1916's, its not always about at the rims being hard and square. There are plenty with rims similar to yours. I am in the camp its not a MPL because the BS 1916 is often seen with a great strike. Yours being one of them. But the MPL is really exceptional for the series IMHO. And lastly, I think its only the 1910 I have seen documented evidence about a proof die being used for business strikes. Perhaps someone has info on others including the 1916? Regardless, send it in and keep us posted and I will keep my fingers crossed for you.
Bob
The edge and the rims tell the story. It is not a Matte Proof Lincoln cent.
I don't think so.
Yes the rims are too mushy. I learned that from the Matte Proof 1909 Plain Cent I own.
My impression when I saw my first certified MPL in-hand was WOW- that's a matte proof! There was no question about it. The inner rims were what really got me- they are incredibly sharp, abnormally so when you've seen 1000's of business strikes, even well-struck ones.
Take a good look at this 1916 ngc ms66 red & brown slabbed matte proof lincoln head cent that sold for $4887.50 by heritage galleries
sold at the January 2007 Orlando Fun show........
not a matte proof, was the concensus of many respondents to my thread on this coin.
these are really hard to tell sometimes, yours in certainly matte proof-like but not the full blown matte proof.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
PCGS has received. I'll update the thread with their opinion.
I think that it is VERY difficult to tell from pictures. You did the only sensible thing by sending it to PCGS for evaluation.
OINK
It doesn't look proof to me.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Many Lincolns of this date have killer detail so your initial belief that the coin is a possible proof is not unreasonable.
Unfortunately, the coin is not a proof. Just a nice early die state.
What a MPL should look like. THis is not a great one a bit impaired. Graded PR64RB
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Serious question: If PCGS calls it a proof, is it actually a proof, or a mechanical error?
Someone actually said on one of these boards, a Lincoln cent does not actually become a matte proof until it is
encapsulated by PCGS as such! I am not kidding. Talk about drinking cool-aid. Just like the factoid that coins do not actually become
money until the fed delivers them to a bank.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
How could it be: "1916 ngc ms66 red & brown "
but be "slabbed matte proof lincoln head"
Wouldn't it be MS-66 or PR-66
BHNC #203
To Treashunt
the statement "Take a good look at this 1916 ngc ms66 red & brown slabbed matte proof lincoln”
above should have been "Take a good look at this 1916 ngc PF66 red & brown slabbed matte proof lincoln”
that was my error.
Note == pcgs uses pr for proof while ngc uses pf
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Totally didn't expect a no grade. (guess no one ever does) Unclear if the notation of UNC on the label means they made the call on PF/BS or not. Stings a little since I have posted numerous threads pointing out tons of AT'd coins in straight graded holders. Recently saw a ridiculous business strike Indian cent in a straight graded holder on the bay. Oh well, I'll resubmit some day.
OUCH, I was hoping you found one, I'm not familiar with early Lincoln Proofs, but I was exited as you that it had potential...........guess its all part of the game
Steve
I believe the 2488.91 means they called it a business strike (due to the 2488 prefix).
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
That seems like a brutal result. What was the original grade and/or holder, if you don't mind sharing?
Hopefully you'll get a better result on the next attempt. Best of luck!
NGC MS65RB
Slather it in a vat of cleaning fluids and they will give it a 66 and you can sell it for 6X the normal going rate (sarcasm). Should have been at least a 65.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Odd indeed. I don't see anything wrong. The next submission should go better!
Sucks
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The notation tells you that PCGS does not believe it is a proof. Regarding the color, the TrueView appears a little more pink than I would have expected, so perhaps PCGS views this coin as having been previously dipped and having that funky, post-dip color that copper can sometimes acquire.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Now THAT is a matte proof! Nice coin!
thinking it a Matte Proof won't make it so, that should have been clear only from the rims. we often refer to submissions as "education" and tuition, but this end result seems a little harsh.........................and has a strange twist. you were hoping for a Matte Proof, which I believe in your heart you knew it wasn't, and you got an unexpected class in AT doctoring.
perhaps you should put on the head-phones and listen to Jerry Garcia sing Truckin' a few times.