@ACop said:
Those premiums are absurd. T minues 10...9....8 before a big money elitist brags they dont have to pay full premium anywhere they buy or sell. Surprised it hasnt happened yet. Maybe the low post count failed to draw a crowd.
Everyone pays the same
I thought the stronger collections get better deals on selling, e.g. greater than 100% of hammer.
@ACop said:
Those premiums are absurd. T minues 10...9....8 before a big money elitist brags they dont have to pay full premium anywhere they buy or sell. Surprised it hasnt happened yet. Maybe the low post count failed to draw a crowd.
Everyone pays the same
I thought the stronger collections get better deals on selling, e.g. greater than 100% of hammer.
@ACop said:
Those premiums are absurd. T minues 10...9....8 before a big money elitist brags they dont have to pay full premium anywhere they buy or sell. Surprised it hasnt happened yet. Maybe the low post count failed to draw a crowd.
Everyone pays the same
I thought the stronger collections get better deals on selling, e.g. greater than 100% of hammer.
He was talking about being a buyer
He was discussing both. He wrote, and you quoted, “buy or sell”.
@fishteeth said:
The sales tax I have to now pay is what will really cut my purchases. I have other hobbies that are much more fun.
Become a dealer and get yourself a resale number.
I am retired and have enjoyed coins for years. I no longer any interest in making a business with the endless paperwork involved a part of a thing I truly enjoy. I still enjoy checking the auction venues and dealer sites, though my purchases have become less and less. I probably will sort through what I have for a 'box of twenty', keepers, gradually divest, and just play with a box of twenty or thirty along with my 7070's.
I take the BP into consideration when calculating my bids. If I’m your underbidder, it doesn’t matter what the BP was.
If your underbidder ignored the BP, the BP increased your cost.
So yes, sometimes a higher BP costs us money. Not very often, imho, but it happens.
Regardless, it’s stupid not to bid because you’re scared an unlikely scenario might unfold.
And my apologies to Bill Jones for laughing at him. It’s just that after hitting your head against the wall for long enough trying to explain what should be obvious, all you can do is laugh.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@ACop said:
The only real advantage those auction houses have is the illusion of luxury. Buyers and Sellers feel more elitist selling at "auction houses" that handle fancy "collectibles". Its the same reason Nordstrom's can sell the same pants as Sears for 50% more, because everyone wants to say "I shop at Nordstrom's" but no one wants to say "I shop at Sears".
...It’s just Nordstrom...save that extra s for Sears
@ACop said:
The only real advantage those auction houses have is the illusion of luxury. Buyers and Sellers feel more elitist selling at "auction houses" that handle fancy "collectibles". Its the same reason Nordstrom's can sell the same pants as Sears for 50% more, because everyone wants to say "I shop at Nordstrom's" but no one wants to say "I shop at Sears".
...It’s just Nordstrom...save that extra s for Sears
I don’t pay more than CDN bid if that much. I subtract the buyers premium from CDN bid before arriving at a max bid. I wonder what the sellers fee is there then - they might as well shop their coins around the bourse at a show with all that or else sell on eBay lol.
At shows I usually offer walk up sellers 80-90 pct CDN bid on material I can use for inventory’ - otherwise they can go the auction house route. This is generous in this market. Everybody knows the bids aren’t exactly going up and it’s been going on for a long time.
I believe that move increase premiums will drive more business to eBay and GC.
Obviously, you think that staying at 17.5% gives Legend an edge somehow. Strikes me as odd. If you’re going to undercut the other auction firms, why not go all the way to 0%? I would.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Obviously, you think that staying at 17.5% gives Legend an edge somehow. Strikes me as odd. If you’re going to undercut the other auction firms, why not go all the way to 0%? I would.
There are those who do that, David Lawrence and Steve Hayden for example. They even pay for shipping the lots.
I bought one of my last want list coins from David Lawrence. I am sorry that I had not done more business with them.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@fishteeth said:
The sales tax I have to now pay is what will really cut my purchases. I have other hobbies that are much more fun.
Become a dealer and get yourself a resale number.
If you want to get yourself in a world of hurt, start using a resale number as method of sales tax evasion. If you get audited, you will rue the day you did it. If you think that keeping sloppy records will protect you, think again. The state will make up a set of books for you, and they won’t be in your favor.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
All else being equal, who you gonna choose as a consignor: the firm offering 112% of hammer or the one offering 110%?
TDN makes an excellent point that some of the other posters are really missing. It may surprise many of the posters here that many large auction consignments come from estates which are being handled by heirs or their attorneys. When an attorney has bids from two auction houses - one for 112% of hammer and the other 110% - well, of course, he's going to pick the firm offering 112%. Now, it could very well turn out that the house offering 110% will realize higher prices but the attorney is not going to want to get involved explaining that to the heirs. He'll just say he took the best offer. Having been involved in this business for quite some time, you would be amazed at how many sizable collections have been put together over the years very quietly with the heirs knowing nothing about it until the day the collector dies and it's dumped in their lap. At that point, all they care about is "show me the money" and the family attorney, who is equally ignorant about the nuances of the coin auction business, will just go for the highest percentage of hammer price.
@2ndCharter said: All else being equal, who you gonna choose as a consignor: the firm offering 112% of hammer or the one offering 110%?
TDN makes an excellent point that some of the other posters are really missing. It may surprise many of the posters here that many large auction consignments come from estates which are being handled by heirs or their attorneys. When an attorney has bids from two auction houses - one for 112% of hammer and the other 110% - well, of course, he's going to pick the firm offering 112%. Now, it could very well turn out that the house offering 110% will realize higher prices but the attorney is not going to want to get involved explaining that to the heirs. He'll just say he took the best offer. Having been involved in this business for quite some time, you would be amazed at how many sizable collections have been put together over the years very quietly with the heirs knowing nothing about it until the day the collector dies and it's dumped in their lap. At that point, all they care about is "show me the money" and the family attorney, who is equally ignorant about the nuances of the coin auction business, will just go for the highest percentage of hammer price.
Should a buyer need to do math on every item just to support an auction house's bullshit sales pitch to consignors ?
Look at me I'm such a clever consignor I got 113% of hammer that other idiot only got 112.5%
That's a hefty premium and bad for the hobby; if every time you buy or sell there is a 20% hurdle, trade is less likely to happen. With cac coins, all you do is call around to check out the offers and sell; buy/sell spreads are small with that type of transaction. I called HA last week for an offer on a coin that has auctioned recently in the low $4K range, and they made a strong offer; another major dealer offered me $4K.
Too high. I for one won't even browse their offerings. There are many more venues, including your own, that would bankrupt me if I won ten per cent of the coins I like.
@fishteeth said:
The sales tax I have to now pay is what will really cut my purchases. I have other hobbies that are much more fun.
Become a dealer and get yourself a resale number.
That's a can of worms in California.
You can get a resale number and have to make reports
or
You can get a TEMPORARY license but it's almost useless for mail orders. https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/temporary-sellers.htm
"Temporary permits are issued to individuals with no permanent place of business, and cover a selling period of 90 days or less at one location."
Comments
It seems crazy that people are ok with the auction houses taking such a large cut of the sale.
I thought the stronger collections get better deals on selling, e.g. greater than 100% of hammer.
He was talking about being a buyer
He was discussing both. He wrote, and you quoted, “buy or sell”.
Same as with income tax?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I am retired and have enjoyed coins for years. I no longer any interest in making a business with the endless paperwork involved a part of a thing I truly enjoy. I still enjoy checking the auction venues and dealer sites, though my purchases have become less and less. I probably will sort through what I have for a 'box of twenty', keepers, gradually divest, and just play with a box of twenty or thirty along with my 7070's.
I’ll try one last time, then I give up.
I take the BP into consideration when calculating my bids. If I’m your underbidder, it doesn’t matter what the BP was.
If your underbidder ignored the BP, the BP increased your cost.
So yes, sometimes a higher BP costs us money. Not very often, imho, but it happens.
Regardless, it’s stupid not to bid because you’re scared an unlikely scenario might unfold.
And my apologies to Bill Jones for laughing at him. It’s just that after hitting your head against the wall for long enough trying to explain what should be obvious, all you can do is laugh.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
...It’s just Nordstrom...save that extra s for Sears
Searss
Done.
I don’t pay more than CDN bid if that much. I subtract the buyers premium from CDN bid before arriving at a max bid. I wonder what the sellers fee is there then - they might as well shop their coins around the bourse at a show with all that or else sell on eBay lol.
At shows I usually offer walk up sellers 80-90 pct CDN bid on material I can use for inventory’ - otherwise they can go the auction house route. This is generous in this market. Everybody knows the bids aren’t exactly going up and it’s been going on for a long time.
I believe that move increase premiums will drive more business to eBay and GC.
Sothebys is 25%.
Obviously, you think that staying at 17.5% gives Legend an edge somehow. Strikes me as odd. If you’re going to undercut the other auction firms, why not go all the way to 0%? I would.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
this just in auction house pisses on my leg but assures me its just rain.
There are those who do that, David Lawrence and Steve Hayden for example. They even pay for shipping the lots.
I bought one of my last want list coins from David Lawrence. I am sorry that I had not done more business with them.
If you want to get yourself in a world of hurt, start using a resale number as method of sales tax evasion. If you get audited, you will rue the day you did it. If you think that keeping sloppy records will protect you, think again. The state will make up a set of books for you, and they won’t be in your favor.
All else being equal, who you gonna choose as a consignor: the firm offering 112% of hammer or the one offering 110%?
TDN makes an excellent point that some of the other posters are really missing. It may surprise many of the posters here that many large auction consignments come from estates which are being handled by heirs or their attorneys. When an attorney has bids from two auction houses - one for 112% of hammer and the other 110% - well, of course, he's going to pick the firm offering 112%. Now, it could very well turn out that the house offering 110% will realize higher prices but the attorney is not going to want to get involved explaining that to the heirs. He'll just say he took the best offer. Having been involved in this business for quite some time, you would be amazed at how many sizable collections have been put together over the years very quietly with the heirs knowing nothing about it until the day the collector dies and it's dumped in their lap. At that point, all they care about is "show me the money" and the family attorney, who is equally ignorant about the nuances of the coin auction business, will just go for the highest percentage of hammer price.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Should a buyer need to do math on every item just to support an auction house's bullshit sales pitch to consignors ?
Look at me I'm such a clever consignor I got 113% of hammer that other idiot only got 112.5%
the consignors are the idiots at the table
That's a hefty premium and bad for the hobby; if every time you buy or sell there is a 20% hurdle, trade is less likely to happen. With cac coins, all you do is call around to check out the offers and sell; buy/sell spreads are small with that type of transaction. I called HA last week for an offer on a coin that has auctioned recently in the low $4K range, and they made a strong offer; another major dealer offered me $4K.
Too high. I for one won't even browse their offerings. There are many more venues, including your own, that would bankrupt me if I won ten per cent of the coins I like.
That's a can of worms in California.
You can get a resale number and have to make reports
or
You can get a TEMPORARY license but it's almost useless for mail orders.
https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/temporary-sellers.htm
"Temporary permits are issued to individuals with no permanent place of business, and cover a selling period of 90 days or less at one location."
I was suggesting actually becoming a dealer - if you love coins and don't mind the paperwork, you can handle more interesting items.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I'd say both sides of the argument are correct. BPs don't really matter. Unless people are unintelligent or irrational.
So then they often do matter...