Grading Bust Coinage.............
spacehayduke
Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is always a challenge for PCGS, NGC, CAC. Below is some of my large size bust dimes in the grading range of 53-55. All of them are CAC (so they are solid for the GRADE) with the exception of the 1823 which was rejected because of an old reverse cleaning. Despite the narrow grade range, you can see they exhibit variable amounts of sharpness for the devices. Part of this has to do with strike, part is to do with wear. This is always a judgement call since during those days many dies were not properly adjusted for sharp strike. In either case, this group provides an interesting study on these issues. Comments, other comparisons with images, welcome.
Best, SH
My online coin store - https://www.desertmoonnm.com/
9
Comments
These are all open collar coins, probably with many die varieties. I'm more familiar with Capped Bust Halves. Some coins even in gem lack striking detail, depending on dates and die pairing. With an Unc. coin, you can focus on luster breaks, rather than the lack of detail in a specific area of a coin. It's trickier with circulated coinage, because you have to "mix and match" wear and lack of striking detail.
Just remember, if it's a CAC coin, JA is willing to buy it. That's all.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Great looking group. I love bust dimes.
Those are very nice coins you have assembled. Great consistency... Cheers, RickO
I like the color on these but most look like they have too much wear for the assigned grades. I don't care if JA is willing to buy them. I have plenty of confidence in my ability to grade and decide what I like.
The 1825 may be an AU53 but it is so weakly struck that I would never call this solid for the grade.
I do not think that screw presses were capable of being adjusted for strike, as later presses were. The guys swinging the arms of the screw press gave it their all and the dies went as far as they could, and that was that.
very nice!
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Very nice coins. They look conservatively graded as well. I know bust halves better than dimes. PCGS knows less about grading bust halves than most semi-experienced bust half collectors. The 1809 O-105 (weak chin, weak left wing) and 1814/3 LDS readily come to mind as often improperly graded. As a result, I see a fair number of bust halves that are undergraded because of strike weakness issues, and not because of wear. I'm not sure that is a huge problem, as long as PCGS is consistent, or mostly consistent, though there is always variation in grading.
Tom
Great eye.
thats a neat group of dimes. nice pick ups
Your 1821 JR8 is to die for!! You have an amazing eye!
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There are 3 there that would not have surprised to be in UNC holders at some point in TPG history...whether the detail is all there or not.
Very nice coins and yes, they appear tough to grade
Congrats on a nice collection.
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i especially like the 27's
PS excellent photos also.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Please tell me what your background and experience is in grading bust coinage, and in particular grading bust dimes and understanding bust dime die marriages.
50 years as a collector now, 47 of those as a dealer and 12 years as a cataloger and appraiser for a major auction company. I've seen and graded plenty of bust coins, half dimes to silver dollars.
Why does owning Bust Dimes have anything to do with grading them? I have graded many of them over the years. They are not among the coins that I now choose to collect.
Your post is by far one of the most interesting posts I have read thus far in my 6 years here!
Thank you
Why? Because I'm the only post making a negative comment?
You are welcome, I guess.
I'm sorry but the color is the only thing that I like about these. They certainly don't look undergraded to me. And none are uncirculated, no matter what the holders say. The 1825 JR2 looks to have the least wear but worst strike.The others all have more substantial wear than just a touch on the highest points.
Believe it or not, there was actually a time when strike mattered. A coin could not be graded gem unless it was fully struck. To me, strike still matters. To others, less so. That's OK.
If you want to see undergraded bust coinage, look at our member Eastoncollection's registry sets. He has patiently put together a collection of originally toned certified bust coinage that is comprised of coins that are more than solid for the grade. The undergraded coins are out there but few and far between.
Can you say SURFACES?
The surfaces of the coins matters more than the strike. Luster leads to the truth. If luster is broken it should be an AU but we all know the fallacy to that. Eye appeal adds grading points whether it is toning booming luster or a razor sharp strike in that order.
XF coins should have luster but those are routinely put in low AU holders making a true XF45 coin hard to find in a new holder.
So, look closely at the fields and listen to what they are telling you. They hold the key to advanced bust coin grading.
As for my qualifications before someone asks. Bust collector since 1978 and dealer since 1975. Over 95% complete CBH and CB half dimes, over 50% draped halves and CB dimes and nearing 50% quarters from 1796 by die marriage. Hopefully that qualifies my opinions.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
It is tough with bust coinage, as there are so many issues to deal with. It's good to know the series your interested in, and hope the graders do too if you are a submitter. Some varieties have mushy strikes in the centers and a coin may be graded lower than it really is as a result. Just like the beautiful dimes spacehayduke posted above, bust quarters sometimes have similar grades that can be debated with regards to wear or strike.
Take a look at the 1806 Browning-4 bust quarter below. I had purchased it in a PCGS XF holder, but it looked better to me. The variety has issues in that the die was breaking and it comes very weakly struck in the centers. It also has mint made damage in the shield. I cracked this coin out and sent it in to be graded again where it received an AU50 grade. I think the graders recognized the striking anomalies when I sent it in.
1TwoBits
Believe it or not, times change and grading has become more sophisticated and complex - that was the point of my post. Strike plays a complex role in bust coinage grading, it is not a simple case of good strike vs. bad, at least in the worn grades, because it is now recognized that strike varies alot during the minting process back in the day and it varies within different die marriages. So for these coins, taking strike into account for the numeric grade is a judgement call. That was what I was trying to convey here. If strike still matters to one, then one will never be able to collect by die marriage for sure in bust coinage, and one will also greatly limit ones ability to collect nice pieces. What fun is that?
TwoBits, that is a gorgeous bust quarter - I love the weak strike on the reverse that characterizes that die marriage and gives it a distinctness and character. That is what collecting is all about.
Best, SH
Just to reiterate the variations in strike in the bust coinage take the 1807 O-106
Notice the extreme difference in strike between the obverse and reverse.
This is the third use of this obverse die hence its shallow strike compared to the reverse.
You really have to learn the series to be able to properly grade them.
Bust DMs, you need to post more often.
Thanks Kaz but more isn't necessarily better.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Believe it or not, times change and grading has become more sophisticated and complex - that was the point of my post.
I don't agree. It has become more lax and permissive with regard to strike.
Do you think that I don't understand that that these coins SOMETIMES come weakly struck? I have seen plenty of well struck ones, too.
Do you think that I don't know to grade ALL early US coins by surface more than wear. Same is true for C and D mint gold and territorial gold.
When I graded hundreds of thousands of uncirculated silver dollars, I quickly learned that the O mints from the 1880s were often weakly struck showing little or no detail on the eagles breast feathers. PCGS would never grade these as gems back in the late 1980s. Now (and for quite a while) they will grade these as gems. Thank you but I'll take the well struck one for my money.
Would anyone sane person prefer a weakly struck coin to a well struck one with all else being equal? Stop arguing just for the sake of arguing.
And why would I want to buy a few bust dimes when I have graded hundreds of them over my fifty years? And how does afford know if I'm a good grader or a bad grader? I've done quite well with the few coins that I have submitted and had several major dealers rely on my grading opinions to buy coins to slab back when this game began. Each time they were anxious to have me render more opinions on raw gold, as my record with the services was apparently very good for them, too. I choose not to play that game. I don't need the money.
I have total confidence in my ability to grade. I'm just sorry that some of you guys don't know me a bit better. I really have a lot to offer but aren't going to bother if my knowledge is treated with skepticism, instead of welcomed. Why should I bother?
Maybe someday I'll tell you the story of how the first two Central America 1857S double eagles were graded and how I guessed both the grades correctly. BTW, they were a 63 and 65. Booming luster, like 1904s. I was actually the first numismatist to see coins from that wreck- one day before Walter Breen and the day that the cover shot was taken for The Numismatist. That was just one of three shipwrecks on which I was consulted.
I don't mean to brag here but rather just communicate that I have some real experience that I'd be happy to share but not if it means dealing with the likes of afford, who I am told is not well regarded among some dealers.
The paper money forum is much more civilized, so I'll be happy to go back to spending my time there. We all appreciate other members contributions. You should try this approach.
The paper money forum is much more civilized, so I'll be happy to go back to spending my time there. We all appreciate other members contributions. You should try this approach.
More civilized? You talkin' to me? Go read your own posts and tell us who is more civilized. Yikes.
HST, If the die marriage comes weakly struck and that is what it is in bust coins, then absolutely I prefer it as it is. if a die marriage comes well struck, then yes, I prefer it that way. JMHO.
Best, SH
Absolutely agree, surfaces and the story they tell are the most important.
Best, SH
Space-die marriages don't come either weakly struck or well struck. Coins from a single set of dies can be well struck or weakly struck. The 1794 dollar was struck from a single set of dies. they are typical weak in the centers but one can find well struck examples, no? You can't seem to any accept criticism of your coins.
Afford-you are pure troll and worthy only to be ignored. You don't know me and I don't know you and I'm happy to keep it that way.
Each collector has their own biases as to what they like or accept in the coins they collect.
I HATE rim dings followed very closely by scratches, that if are bad surpass rim dings, then wipe lines. So those that are horrified by weakly struck coins are entitled to their opinions. If we all liked exactly the same things it would be a dull world.
The weakly struck 1825 is probably my second favorite coin in the group to the 1821 in AU53. The first 1827 may be a real sleeper and appear much better in hand.
Overall everyone should collect for themselves. If you satisfy yourself you do not have to fuss over someone's opinion of your coins. My pet grade is XF and I was once dismissed by a collector of AU halves. It did not influence my option of my collection, only of the other collector.
If a YN shows me a well constructed collection of anything I am appreciative as it took them a lot of effort to assemble it. A young lady showed me her Canadian small cent collection and I told her father she had a gift. The coins were all well matched, not a mishmash of circs, BU's and cleaned junk but all VF to XF with matching color. She eventually became ANA YN of the year. She still loves her cent collection and the memories it brings.
So, collect and let collect and let's all just have fun. Who cares if someone disagrees with our choices. After all we will all reap the rewards we earn in this hobby.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
>
Theoretically, sure...the problem is whether you can find one that is "all else being equal". Myself I prefer toned coins. If I find one knowing I might not find another with that toning I might buy it even if not fully struck. I had the same problem when I collected Buffalo nickels except with those it was far more likely I could find another better struck unless it was a 18D or 26D or some such. With bust dimes (or any of the bust coin) you may never find another you like.
Then again, if you favor strike over color, say, it's a different choice. Thankfully coin collecting, it is a "To each their own" world.
jom
@sellitstore, no one here is arguing for argument sake, with one possible exception
. We are discussing strike issues in the bust dime series and bust coinage collectively. My point in the discussion and the reason I opened the thread, is that sometimes you don't have a choice if you desire a particular die marriage - they come poorly struck and that is that. Personally, I think that is one of the cool characteristics of bust coinage - strike variation, and I embrace it. I love to have a set of die marriages of a given year or series with wide ranges in variation in strike (as well as all other features) that exhibits the minting process back in the day. Studies has shown that die marriages and dies that have been used in more than one die marriage, may show strike and die degradation over the minting period - different die marriages have different strike characteristics, etc. That is part of collecting bust coinage and one aspect that makes it very interesting.
Best, SH
**@sellitstore, no one here is arguing for argument sake, with one possible exception
**.
You are absolutely right. I agree with nearly all that has been said by others.
Please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I love the surfaces on your weakly struck dime. They look to be original and have more luster present than the others. I merely pointed out the fact that the strike would have been considered a greater negative in past years and I'd still favor better strike over weaker strike. No need to pummel me for this comment, as one member did.
Did you know that German collectors also disdain rim nicks but have no problem buying a harshly cleaned or buffed coin? While a generalization, I have found this to often be true. To each his own.
Thanks for your intelligent and constructive comments, SH, jom and Bust DMs. I recognize your experience and expertise. I, too, try not to comment beyond my expertise but am always happy to hear and consider worthy comments and perhaps change my opinions and increase my knowledge. After 50 years at this, I'm still learning, perhaps more than ever, and still loving numismatics and never had to consider another "job". I've been fortunate and enjoy sharing my knowledge.
Well said!
This thread has been very interesting to me and I have noticed all of these charateristics(sp) over the years in my search for Bust Dimes. I collect the Bust Dimes by JR number and try to find coins that I like and can afford. Most of mine are in the VF-XF range, but have some above and some below. I am down to needing 9 of the 123. All PCGS and in the Registry.
Beautiful dimes, spacehayduke.
For what it's worth - and I haven't been paying perfect attention - I remember more of a focus on strike and details in the 'old days.' My recollection is that there started to be more talk of luster and surfaces sometime in the 1980s. Maybe I'm off by a decade or two, but I think this was a real trend.
Of all My Dimes......the Bust series is my favorite.
I agree with sell it store. If someone is content with a weakly struck coin, for whatever the reason for the weak strike, so be it. If collecting by die-marriage turns you on that's great too. All he's saying is that if you're not in a hurry and you prefer well struck coins, wait for one to turn up. I'm sure sell it store understands all about die-marriages etc., etc., with regards to bust coinage. Any serious collector of the series does. That's not his point. I think. He likes a good full strike. I do too. Some people around here are too harsh and like too argue and criticize just for the sake of it. Lay off. Oh, and by the way, those are nice dimes. They're just not everybody's cup of tea. Variety is the spice of life. It makes the world go round. Be happy!
Oh, and by the way. The reason for the spacing in sell it store, is because with my little sub-par tablet, if I don't put a space between the words, sell it store comes out ........ALLIGATORS! And don't bother trying to help me. I already know about disabling spell check. I just don't care to do it. I LIKE to see the funny words that pop-up. Have a nice day, boys and girls!
Great discussion folks, this is what I hoped for.
Best, SH
O.k., afford. You do make some valid points. Bottom line, It's really tough to grade bust coinage for all the reasons you state. At least it is for me and believe me I've spent years trying to figure it all out. It takes a real pro with a certain feel to get it right. I know I'm not there and probably never will be. I just accept my limitations and go for what I like. The whole thing confuses me but that doesn't stop me from keeping on and trying to learn as I go. But I must say, whoever is right or whoever is not do right, I do admire the way sell it store stands up and defends his positions. He's got moxy
By the way. If you notice, there's no period after the last sentence of my previous post. You should see what my spell check comes up with when I spell that last word and use a period after it. WHOA NELLY!!! I'd be banned for life.
MOXY. MOXY. MOXY. Guess I should have used all caps. Too late now. MOXY!
Afford, nothing better than a post that makes me laugh out loud. Mission accomplished. Thanks.
Technical grade and Desirability grade (or "market grade" ) are certainly closely related, but still far from the same thing,.
For example, monster toned Morgans might go up a point in technical grade, perhaps by slightly camouflaging hits, yet trade in the market for two grades up, or more, due to spectacular eye appeal and near-certain originality.
Back to this nice run of early dimes, very nice coins, all with above -average "presence" , even if some of the toning colors might be 'secondary',
No dispute from me with the pcgs grades and cac stickers, even as i acknowledge the strict technical tight grades are a level lower, so what? That only matters in the mind of the tecnical stickler.
The rest of the coin market is what's relevant. Those are liquid coins in those holders.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry