Do you find it weird to you see your ex coins in upgraded holders out in the market?
mercurydimeguy
Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
I realize this is something that not a lot of people experience but since I collect something very very narrow, and there are only so many pieces available, I am running across pieces that I used to own that neither CAC'd when sent in for review, nor had enough meat on them in my opinion to qualify for the next grade up, wind up in the same flavor slab but in a higher graded holder. Does this bother you if you experienced this?
This is not about complaining but more of a "huh, what changed in the last 12-24 months?"...cause I don't see it when I submit coins, this "gradeflation" thing people keep talking about, it hasn't hit southern New Hampshire yet or something 
Although, we are one of the only parts of the country that is still in the low 40's weather wise at night, and daily rain like the days of Noah, so maybe New Hampshire owners of coins aren't yet participating in the generous grading people keep citing 
Comments
Yeah, it bothers me when I see one of my Ex-coins upgraded, and even more so if it has a CAC sticker. One such coin was graded MS65 in an OGH, but it had a few bothersome carbon spots. I resubmitted it to satisfy the previous owner before buying his whole collection, and it came back MS65 in a blue holder, which was no surprise to me. I did not send it to CAC, as it was a gift MS65 to me. It turned up in an MS66/CAC holder in a Heritage auction right after I sold it at a 20% loss. Makes me wonder what I could do with the "nice" coins I have on hand in terms of regrading.
@rhedden I've experienced your scenario too many times. ESPECIALLY on crossovers..."things that make you go hmm"
It's like running into your ex in real life and seeing that she had some, er, "coin doctoring" done and you're like "Damn, why couldn't that happen when I was with you" but them you realize that your new coin is graded higher and still better.
"Do you find it weird to you see your ex coins in upgraded holders out in the market?"
No not really. I can only give one example. I bought a rare variety half dollar in an TPG holder for a hefty price from a respected dealer. The dealer had told me it had not beaned but given the near uniqueness of the variety I decided to get it anyway. When it arrived I imaged it and immediately returned it to the dealer because it was harshly cleaned in the past (the reason I believed it did not bean) and in my view was only in a graded holder because of the rare variety. I simply could not live with that even if it was probably the only opportunity to get that variety. 4 months later, it was posted online in the other TPGs holder, same grade, with a bean which effectively made its value 30% higher. Go figure.
Best, SH
Hasn't happened yet. I don't look real hard though.
It's happened to me a few times. The thing that really irkes me is when I got a body bag on a coin years ago, and now it's in a high graded holder, for the issue. Why did I have to get shaft while someone else got to make out like bnadit?
Not upgraded, but downgraded (kind of). I've run into one of the first really good coins I ever bought, twice.
I purchased a nice circ cam raw 1806/5 quarter from Daryl Vaudt in San Antonio around 1991. It graded green VG10 at PCI (the PCGS dealer in town at the time was not someone I liked doing business with). I sold it in 1999, to help pay for a move to Dallas I was making.
Around 2004 i encountered the same coin (it has a mark in the field that made it recognizable) in a PCGS VG8 slab at a Texas show.
I saw it again just a couple years ago at another Texas show, still in its PCGS holder and priced a LOT higher than the $400 I paid for it in 1991.
I guess one could argue that really wasn't a downgrade crossing PCI VG10 to PCGS VG8, but it is weird that I keep running into it.
I blame myself, usually, for not seeing the upgrade potential. But I also suspect things are a little looser today.
It's worked both ways for me. I continue to buy coins in genuine holders when I think the TPG decisions were iffy. Often they grade problem-free.
I've also regraded hundreds of coins in the last few years and more than 25% have upgraded.
Lance.
Sometimes, my old coins get put in the upgraded holders right before I release them to the market.
That, I can live with.
I don't think I have ever experience something quite like that. I know a guy that was going to sell me a 1921 Peace dollar Raw for 63 money and I opted not to get it.... He sent it in to PCGS and it 65ed.
I find this disturbing.
I think the economy is often scapegoated as the cause of the dip in value in many series. Grade inflation is killing this hobby and the secondary market.
To be fair, a lot of those coins were choice and deserving. But I wouldn't disagree that gradeflation is troubling.
Lance.
I have sold several coins that have subsequently upgraded. Generally, I am happy about it, as I usually know what I'm selling and I want the buyer to be happy also. I have also bought several coins and have had them upgrade. Generally, the sellers are pleased to hear it.
Tom
Since I do not sell coins, this has not been an issue for me. I do look at some of my slabbed coins and think they are worthy of an upgrade.... mostly I think that is owner pride though...
Since I just collect nice coins I tend not to worry about a labeled grade (I know - blasphemous)... Cheers, RickO
My biggest problem is coins I have tried, wont go, yet only to sell them to a national dealer, and have them upgrade a short time later. I can count numerous examples over the years where I had this happen .
I was and still am. Past caring, but a 64 to 66 from same TPG and a $125,000 difference kinda does rankle a tad.
Recently a local dealer friend, who has a shop here in town, showed me an 1884-CC GSA dollar that he had sold to a customer. He wanted to know my opinion on the probable grade if he submitted it for grading for the guy. My grade: 65 or 65+, so we agreed and he sent it in for grading. What do we know, it came back a 67!
Is there any potential legal action you can take against the grading company if the grade changes?
I've had coins that I sold raw to forum members at favorable prices, that they got graded, then they offered them back to me for a LOT more money. But I really only have myself to blame I guess.
Most of my coins are in older holders so when I sell to a dealer it's at a price that the coin deserves, i.e., we both usually see the upgrade potential. I sold a nice Columbian ms66 recently for $ 2500 and it promptly upgraded to ms67 , which due to the population explosion is now worth $ 2800.
Three years ago I sold a similar ms67 for $13,300. So I would agree with those who say that the grading standards and ballooning populations of high grade coins is making the market decline.
Commems and Early Type
Increasing populations was recently raised an issue in the coins you would be afraid of owning thread.
Doubt it. Not only would statute of limitations probably apply, but legal expenses would probably be $500,000
Mine went the route of putting into NGC for the higher grade and ...then.... to compete for the prestige of slabbing "finest known" back to PCGS to cross for that higher grade.
I wish I hadn't got pissed, though.
It soured me on ALL slabbing during a time when I could have "knocked em dead" with my type set which I unwisely sold just from disappointment.
Stupid.
But I did return to coins. Still active and what's done is done.
In retrospect, dorkkarl was 100% right when he said that the PCGS guarantee should apply to undergraded coins too.
That move would end the grading companies within an hour.
At the HA 2015 FUN sale, I sold a high-end collection of toned PCGS/NGC Washington 25c I had put together between 1985 and 2000, All of the consigned PCGS 25c had been regraded at least once in the "+" grade era, several more than once. All of the 25c that were still in NGC holders had been submitted to PCGS for crossover from 1-4 times unsuccessfully.
I was surprised at how many of the coins from this set have upgraded/crossed in the past couple years. Here is an example, chosen because I just saw the coin again looking through eBay listings.
The 1941-d 25c seen below was purchased (sight-unseen) by me in a 1989 Teletrade for $752.50, a princely sum at the time for a 1941-d 25c. It was in an NGC ms67 holder and was pop 1/0. I later crossed it to PCGS and it upgraded to ms67+ on a regrade submission.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/washington-quarters/quarters-and-twenty-cents/1941-d-25c-ms67-pcgs-secure/a/1216-4774.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
(the subsequent lot in this HA listing, a 1942-d 25c PCGS ms67+ was also mine and can now be seen on Coinfacts in an ms68 holder as well!)
Six months later, the coin reappeared at HA with a new grade and cert # :
https://coins.ha.com/itm/washington-quarters/quarters-and-twenty-cents/1941-d-25c-ms67-pcgs-cac/a/1221-3716.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
The other day, I was looking at Washington 25c on eBay and came upon:
ebay.com/itm/1941-D-25C-Washington-Quarter-PCGS-MS68-/322483711868?hash=item4b1586ef7c:g:RiQAAOSwrddY8SOY
When I get the chance, I will post a few more examples from this consignment.
Michael
Observing/reading all of these upgrade/gradflation stories, beauty sure is in the "eyes of the be(holder)".
Have you tried submitting through the national dealer before selling?
How so?
Once they leave my hands I fully expect them to go to the market. That's a by-product of leaving meat on the bone. Something that's quite rare nowadays. Upgrade ? Another indication that graders kinda suck.
Anyone see their coins in a downgraded holder?
Amen.
Sounds like another example of busting the "anonymity" of the coins being sent in.
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No, but oddly, part of me thinks I might take comfort in knowing that I left no money on the table.
All of the payouts due to collectors who left money on the table because the coin was undergraded before its upgrade.
Except that the guarantee would only apply to those coins sent in in a PCGS holder. Sounds like a majority of coins submitted that get upgraded are sent in raw or have been removed from their original PCGS holder. You would need really good pics to assure that a former PCGS ms62 which is now a PCGS ms64 are exactly the same coin with no alterations.
Even if you had really good pics, I don't think PCGS is under any obligation once the coins have been cracked out.
Despite the annoyance at grade inflation, I usually only select high end examples for my collection so I enjoy the validation....and the knowledge that the example I might have in a lower grade is better
I could go to any show right now, pick out 100 graded coins in old holders, crack them, and have every single one go down. It does go both ways you know. There have always been over and under graded coins.
In fact, most old holder coins at big shows are over graded. Those guys cracked all the good ones long ago.
i have seen some of my coins upgrade...and cac. i don't mind as long as i didn't sell it low.
No... I have seen my coins in higher grades and it does not bother me. And I can say that grading remains subjective and opinions can change. That all comes with the territory. Grading is not as absolute as a math problem.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Not really. It happens and it's just coins. It does make you go "ugh" a little though. What really sucks is when you see your ex-girlfriend on Facebook a year later and somehow she got hotter
Not sure "weird" was what I was thinking when I saw a coin that I sold in an NGC MS63 slab with a Green CAC back on the market in a new NGC MS66 slab.
Coin Rarities Online
I think most people do regrades now rather than crack out raw to resubmit (unless a crossover).
Wow. Now that one would hurt on multiple levels. Which series?
I'm no lawyer but the PCGS contract we all sign to submit coins covers a lot...So I don't think legal action can be taken if a coins grade changes...
Do you have any other MS-63's for sale by chance?!