Define a dealer?
PTVETTER
Posts: 5,978 ✭✭✭✭✭
A professional coin dealer will have the following
An EIN Number
A. State tax number
A bank account with their business name on the account.
A location with a phone number to the location.
A any thing else?
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
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A costumer base.
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I got some base customers
An inventory.
A Hawaiian shirt.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I got some base customers
I'm missing the Hawwian shirt!
A website.
Some expertise.
A coin show presence.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
This one really has me up in the air. Integrity when buying and selling hits the top of the list I would think.
Ken
That would be a wholesale dealer... (correct?)
I FULLY agree with the Integrity aspect.
along with honesty!
buying/selling/representing as a Dealer will be their primary endeavor as well as source of income, not something they supplement another income with and do on the weekend.
Keets it was great seeing you at the Meadville show hope you had a good show.
Someone who can follow you into a revolving door and come out ahead of you.
Business
Spilled mustard
Printed duplicate receipts with their name, contact info, and terms on it.
A business plan.
Support various local, regional, and national coin organizations.
Many also need an AML plan.
Cool biz card with a ultra rare coin they don't own!
Dealer: a person or business that buys and sells goods
Professional: Person who has achieved an acclaimed level of proficiency in a calling or trade.
An EIN Number: Yes
A. State tax number: Yes
A bank account with their business name on the account.: No There is no need for a bank account with business name
A location with a phone number to the location: Nice, but not needed. Internet is fine, a phone is so last century.
Printed duplicate receipts with their name, contact info, and terms on it.: Not needed, if a receipt is needed, email it.
A business plan: Nice, but not needed
Support various local, regional, and national coin organizations.: Nice, but not needed,
buying/selling/representing as a Dealer will be their primary endeavor as well as source of income: Nice concept, but some really good professional dealers may have a nice 6 figure or higher income from else where, which may allow them to be a really good LOW MARGIN dealer.
I could be a professional dealer working strictly off ebay or Amazon or even the BST-like genres.
Remains at shows until posted show end times.
TIC
ditto, Pat.
Obviously there are opinions on this... as with all things. If one buys and sells (products), then they are a dealer. Some deal on the internet, some from a table.... others from a shop. The effort here seems to be in categorizing dealers, not defining the term. Cheers, RickO
A professional coin dealer works 9-5 at least, wears a shirt and tie, clean shaven, has a company logo, hat, jacket, etc., advertises and attends coin shows. Or maybe that was the way it was back in the 50s....Seriously the dividing line between dealer and serious collector is not that large. Buying with intent to sell may be a major criteria.
Not a collector
Not married to any coin
Everything has a price
Maybe a specialist
Probably a generalist
Knows and Plays to strengths... sales, grading,
Knows and compensates for weakness... sales, grading
Network of Clients
Network of Dealers
If you only buy stuff, you are a hoarder. To be a dealer you have to sell stuff and more than occasionally.
FWIW, the difference between a hobby and a business - to the IRS - is a making a profit in 3 of 5 years.
To be a business, you do not need an EIN. The majority of businesses (sole proprietorships) are run under the owner's SSN.
You **need ** a sales tax number only if you are selling a taxable product (coins are not taxable in many jurisdictions). You may want one because if you have a sales tax number, you can use that # (or in some places get a reseller's certificate) and avoid paying taxes on supplies used in your business.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
In the state of CT you have to have various licenses, at least according to their rules, if you are buying especially precious metals from the public, towns issue and govern rules on what is required through the police department. But do they care? I have asked the state licensing authority about a dealer who does his best to remain invisible to the authorities and they don't care.
I know that HA and certain dealers want a copy of "dealers'" state tax license so they don't get hit with taxes or for regulatory purposes. However kowtowing to a government bureaucrat is not the criteria of a "dealer".
I forgot about the AML plan, in my case it was approved by fincen part of the IRS.
If you can't follow the rules and regulation set by the government, then your ethics may be in question.
Like it or not.
As a coin dealer wouldn't a certain amount of sales have to come from bullion in order to need a AML?
After reading the above, I'm pretty sure that I'm not a coin dealer.
Lots of companies that have nothing to do with any form of PM require AML controls...the crooks are very slick.
Only one thing is required to be a "dealer"
A customer.
Everything else is just the spectrum from not-so-great to great dealers.
Someone who can profit consistently selling coins that they have purchased.
This is a lot less technical than any of the above.....
But if you buy coins for the sole purpose of selling them....you might be a dealer.
Just trying to clear some space between the "intentional buy and sell" person, and the many of us who may sell parts of our own collections for various reasons, (change of direction, upgrade, mistake, lost interest, etc.)
True. But as far as the "law" for coin dealers, the AML plan is only required if you do $50K per year or more in bullion-related/intrinsic-value related buying/selling transactions per year....typically cash-equivalent instruments. Most big coin firms and bullion buying B&Ms likely qualify. These days, even a generic MS66 $20 Saint or MS64 $20 Lib would be considered "bullion-related." I've seen numerous interpretations on just how to tabulate the $50K (checks, cash, or whatever). I've seen so many different opinions and interpretations of the rules that I still don't fully understand it. Most dealers probably ignore it or are ignorant of it. Most small vest-pocket dealers or part-timers would never get close to the $50K threshold.
But, if you can find someone who can recite all the ins and outs of the AML requirements, and they buy/sell coins too....that's almost certainly a coin dealer (or at worst a federal agent, tax attorney/CPA, or financial crimes attorney).
Can one actually purchase a plan suitable for one's business?
Yes
And it can be costly.
ITCA can help.
There are plenty of dealers who are careful to follow the letter of the law, but also try to get the lion's share of profits in transactions, and all is forgiven if they pay "their taxes". In my book ethics has little to do with legalism, and everything to do with real morals, conscience and intent. Tight buy sell spreads, transparency in transactions, not hiding or giving self-serving versions of the truth depending on who you are speaking to. Try the PNG code of ethics on for size: http://pngdealers.org/code-of-ethics/ That's a good start but being a good honest dealer involves a lot more.
a person or business that buys and sells coins
That would any coin dealer.
The question is about a professional coin dealer.
Flee market dealers buy and sell coin, I do NOT consider them professional coin dealers. Do you?
I don't think any of the things listed in the op make a person a professional coin dealer. Sure a "professional" Coin dealer may have many of those things but I'm guessing that many of the rip off shops and gold and silver hotel buyers have all of those as well.
A person can be a professional coin dealer in my opinion if they buy and sell coins more often than not with the intent to make a profit, Treat people fairly and act with integrity. There are many levels of this as others have posted.
This thread reminds me of previous threads where "professional" coin dealers on here called out smaller sellers as wannabes etc. Just because somebody doesn't have a checkbook with a business name on it doesn't make them any less professional IMO.
My Ebay Store
If the majority of your income comes from selling coins you are a dealer.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
He has what you want. For a price.
Well, if a "coin dealer" has a coin you want and is willing to sell it to you; does it matter if they are not a "professional" dealer?
A dealer is a dealer. It doesn't matter what the commodity is or if he is "professional" or not. He has something you or someone else wants. For a price. Think coins, think drugs. It's all the same. A dealer is a dealer.
sure. the quality of the dealer> @PTVETTER said:
I do. If you are consistently buying and selling coins you are a dealer. If you make money on every coin you buy and sell you are a dealer. If you lose money on every coin you buy and sell you are a dealer.
Perhaps more of what your question should be is "define a successful dealer".
Of course it matters. I'm not buying from some sketchy guy in a parking lot that stole the merchandise!
Though I do buy from individuals on eBay...
Other than what else mentioned - enough inventory to fill his cases at shows.
Four Major Factors Defining a Dealer:
1. Both buying and selling
2. Everything for sale
3. Decisive, able to make quick on the spot decisions about deals.
4. Superior organization and business skills. Good cash management.
I have my PCGS inventory in my phone which comes in handy and find many buyers want to do a Cert verify on an item. So knowing or being able to access the PCGS price on a PCGS coin is important.
At shows: When a coin is sold I delete it from my eBay store and PCGS inventory manager or when it's purchased (assuming PCGS) photo done from phone then added to both.
@Tetromibi Well, guys like Brett Bogus come to mind, he was a "professional" so being a "pro" doesn't always guarantee a professional transaction....
Bushy eyebrows. Hair growing out of ears and nose. Balding, fat. Big magnifier hanging around neck. Smells of donuts and coffee. Low grumbling emanates from deep within his throat when he grunts and growls. Scary looking, with pointed and sharp teeth. He typically hides under bridges, waiting to eat pets and young children, after dark.