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How come other dollars of the Morgan era don't tone the same?
Zoins
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What is special about Morgans that causes them to tone with wild rainbow colors unlike similar coins minted of the same era such as Trade Dollars and Seated Dollars?
I'm a huge fan of rainbow toned Morgans. To me white Morgans can look similar to white Trade Dollars and Seated Dollars, but they just don't tone the same. Is it all about the canvas bags?
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I agree that LSD and TD rarely tone in rainbow colors but there are exceptions.
without knowing how Dollars prior to Morgans(and Peace Dollars after them) were stored and shipped I would have to say the canvas bags are the reason. if Morgan Dollars were bagged soon after production and kept intact for a long period it would explain the tone. the other Types were probably stored differently allowing a "skin" to form while also not exposing them to the contaminants in the bags.
I'm sure other members have better knowledge and insight into this.
It is all environmental.... Time and exposure... That is even true for coin doctors, except that they perform the same thing in a highly accelerated time frame...
Cheers, RickO
It's all about canvas bags and happenstance. Other types of coins get wild toning colors also. It just seems as if there are far fewer of them.
This, I think, is due to two factors. First the Morgan Dollar is by far the most common 19th century U.S. coin in Mint State. The reasons for this were that the mintages were huge, and the coins were stored in government bags, out of circulation, because comparatively few people wanted them at the time. Mint State coins form the basis for "wild toning colors" and since there are more Morgan Dollars in Mint State, more them have the toning.
The second reason is more nefarious. It's called artificial toning. When a coin doctor gets it right, the coin is much admired and passes as "a toner." When he gets it wrong or goes overboard with the color, it's labeled "AT." There is a considerable reward for coin doctors who get the toning "right."
""""Mint State coins form the basis for "wild toning colors" and since there are more Morgan Dollars in Mint State, more them have the toning.""""
My first thought.
Other possibilities include the chemicals used to whiten the planchets prior to strike IN THAT ERA and any residues they may have left on the planchets, and/or any lubricants they may have used on the planchets IN THAT ERA to make the presses feed better and the dies last longer.
I have no idea if these are indeed factors in Morgan dollar toning, but they are possibilities.
Any truth to the story that sulfur was spread over the bags of Morgans in order to keep the rats away from the canvas? Would explain a lot
Never heard that story.
A variety of original Morgan dollar bags still exist. Somebody fund a program to have them studied for composition and contaminants.
Is this type of study something the ANA could / would fund?
The bags on top of the stack would receive the lion's share - those in the middle very little.
That is assuming some contaminant was placed on a pile of bags after they were in the vault, rather than earlier in the production process or even in the manufacturing of the bags.
Nice looking coin but strange looking TrueView. Here's what it looks like on PCGS:
Well, it certainly had an effect on the 40% Eisenhower Proof coins.
1971-S tends to haze up blue while 1972-S tend to haze up green. Back to blue in 1973 and then 1974 tend to target tone. Rinse/oils/packaging all play a part in how the coins tone up.
The name is LEE!
Common date Morgans are relatively cheap for doctors to tone... you can mess one up and find plenty more.
SLDs and TDs are vastly more expensive...
Sulfur isn't volatile and if the bags were canvas they would be waterproof. It would seem that coins at the bags' surfaces should have been black after all those years.
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Even though SLDs and TDs are more expensive, if rainbow Morgans were done by doctors, I would imagine seeing some SLDs and TDs because you could make more, like the AT Gobrecht that came to market twice.
There is a significant difference in the surviving mint state population and how those coins were stored which goes full circle back to the canvas bags
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
the rats could have eaten the sulphur and evenly distributed sulphuric rat poop throughout the bags.... we are talking industrial strength rats here
I was half-joking... obviously not all rainbow Morgans are done by doctors. Actually a doctor really couldnt make more on SLDs and TDs. Doctoring is a production line business, not a one off. You want cheap MS Morgans to start with not expensive MS SLDs and TDs. The Gobrecht coin was a special circumstance. If you can make 100 toned MS Morgans for the price of 1 MS SLD why risk messing up one coin ?
If you can make 100 toned MS Morgans for the price of 1 MS SLD why risk messing up one coin ?
It's also the case that Morgan "toner" collectors are willing to pay 50X to 100X for superb "A" level examples. That's a very high profit margin for success via coin docs. Even 5X to 10X is a good pay day. You won't find anywhere near that kind of leverage among Seated Dollar collectors. Beautiful toning on MS seated coins usually seems to be limited to 50-100% premiums.
According to Philadelphia Mint records, large numbers of Morgan dollars were damaged by moisture, mildew and rotting canvas bags. There were individually inspected and some were melted. Others were repackaged in wooden boxes of 1,000 pieces, then put back in storage. It is possible that many of the attractively tarnished dollars came from these repackaged pieces. Volatiles from wood, plus the previous canvas rot could have done a lot of interesting things to silver/copper alloy.
Obviously very few Seated dollars were stored away for decades in original bags compared to the hundreds of millions of Morgan dollars that were, but at least three bags of Seated dollars were, the 1859-O and 1860-O coins.
I have never seen one of them with rainbow toning. Did the people who lucked out and got those in the early 1960's dip them all before selling them?
Did the treasury releases of silver dollars in the 50's and 60's include seated dollar bags , or seated dollars mixed in?
No. That would be way tooooo useful.
There were three solid bags of O-Mint dollars, 1859-O and 1860-O. Two of one and one of the other, but I am too lazy to look it up.
Mint bag toning has a very characteristic look as does envelope toning it
s own look, paper roll toning its own look, tissue toning its own look, wood cabinet toning its own look and lets not forget the many different looks of album toning cardboard, paper, tissue and plastic... And yes these items all can contain certain amounts of sulfur... That along with nitrogen and different contaminants can react with different metals in different ways all dependent on the stability and length of time the metals are exposed to the different sources of the contamination to produce the tarnish... I also believe that the planchet prep from one year to the next, as well as preps from different mints played a major factor in how the coins ultimately end up toning... Edited to add: Type of color all dependent on the method of storage... ABYep.... but that's also because a common date MS Morgan starts at a much lower price than the SLDs and TDs. I imagine if you looked at the MS66/7 toned Morgans there would be few outside that 50-100% premium as well. I dont know Morgans but I know toned Peace $ and the same holds true there as well.
I also think its why we are seeing an influx of doctors working on modern toners. Its even cheaper to concentrated on 1964 silver JFKs or clads... lol