Somebody scored.
planonit
Posts: 525 ✭✭
I have given this enough time and it was not me.
I have plans....sometimes
1
planonit
Posts: 525 ✭✭
Comments
Large 8 2/1? Score! Thousands for $185.
Had to look them up. Wow!
Impressive
And it's a genuinly eye-appealing coin at that.
How long was it up?
I did not know that toning can have a pedigree.
I contacted the seller to see if he knew what he had. His response:
Yes. I identified it last year, but didn't mark it. I failed to remember, and threw it in with a lot of capped bust half dollars I just sold. I could have cancelled the sale, but the buyer was going to litigate. My lawyer said I would lose. From now on, I send all my coins to PCGS.
Some of the sellers would somehow lost the package in mail then issue a full refund.
Someone who completely agrees with me.
I wonder what the law really says? If he made a mistake by not listing it accurately, could he not honestly cancel the auction before it sold, saying he made a mistake in the listing?
...this is why it was nice that the OP waited a while before posting this pick...otherwise Pop goes the weasel
Lol, I agree. I checked the sales date to make sure it was far enough in the past that the sale has already concluded. Curiosity got the best of me though, and I wanted to know if the seller had any idea what they had.
The issues are largely questions of state law, but even most state consumer protection laws have exceptions for gross error. For purposes of contract law, if there was a true error (i.e. listing the wrong coin or an error in the price) and there is no "meeting of the minds" (i.e. mutual assent), then there is no valid/legally enforceable contract. In many jurisdictions, outrageous/extreme unilateral error can be the basis for contract rescission. There is also the argument that when bidding through eBay, a buyer agrees to eBay's rules and terms of service which allow for auction cancellation.
Yeah....we have had at least a member or two here, and one who got the thread nuked some years back, who threatened an ebay seller with litigation if they didn't send it...even though they listed without knowing what it was and then were told.
People that threaten to litigate are some of the scummiest around, imho. It's one thing to flat out cherrypick, and another to start to cherrypick, find out seller made a mistake or didn't know what they had but have since become aware, and then threaten to sue. Scum.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I looked it up. It lasted all of 11 minutes 8 seconds. I'd say that is short enough time to have claimed it was a mistake and did not have enough time to fix it before it sold. I don't know of a jury in the world that would not side with the seller on that one.
Wow.. that is an expensive error..... I have seen other auctions cancelled (on ebay) for a similar reason... error in listing...too bad he did not cancel it, I doubt he would have lost. His attorney did not research the issue. Cheers, RickO
He should get another lawyer then, and at least should have fought to not give away all that value. HA had someone buy a coin in one of their auctions only to be contacted months later to return it because they had made a listing mistake. I'm sure they have lawyers to litigate such things.
"I once bought a proof-65 1936 walker half dollar from Heritage galleries for $450 when it was worth about $4500. It was an error in their database as to the price.
About two months after I purchased it one of their reps called me and demanded that I return the coin. I worked out a deal with them where they paid refunded my money plus an additional $750. I was happy as the had treated me well in the past and I wanted to continue to work with them." https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ebay-still-a-cherrypickers-paradise-2017.290909/page-22#post-2683156
Who forgets they have a $10,000 raw coin and then proceeds to take pictures of it and then sell it on eBay without realizing?!?
He should have told his story, impossible to know without that. If I had seen it I would have contacted him about his mistake not take advantage of the seller to rip him off. http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/6102
The seller's pictures didn't do these coins justice either! The 1812 was sold by the time I got to it... but I got the 1820!
There were a lot of good coins there, probably the 1820 is a high end AU, not sure what the variety is, the guy was giving money away, DC area, figures! Great collections don't just materialize out of thin air. Someone who was a serious collector put it together. Sent to Great Collections @ auction after certification the guy would have gotten probably 10-50X more on some of the coins. Unfrigging believable.
The person most at risk for litigation in this case isn't the seller, but the 3rd party who no doubt contacted him after the sale. Some of you do-gooders don't realize the possible consequences of your actions sometimes. I say this not in a derogatory manner, but rather wondering how the lines between friendly conversations and interfering in legal contracts becomes blurred. If someone was pursued for 3rd party interference, they would be in for a world of hurt if someone went whole-hog on them. The seller in this case's biggest downside would have been negative feedback.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
Wow. This is just crazy.
I agree, the seller needs a different lawyer.
Nice 1820 O.108 (R2). Had it been an O.107 this story would be complete.
Lance.
That is the strangest legal theory I've heard. "Interference"??? Collector's common sense meters should be broken with that type of whopping nonsense. Go ahead and sue. Frankly when a rapist is trying to attack someone it is the duty of the victim and the witnesses to cry out at the top of their lungs.
eBay can NARU you for auction interference, but I'm not sure how it would hold up in a court of law.
So how much would that coin be worth?
My friend, you're making a strawman argument based on your strong feelings about such things.
Tortious interference is real, though I'm not sure that's ever been tested with online auctions, I sure wouldn't want to be the first to have to swim.
I have an old college friend who's an attorney that was involved in a case involving 3 companies. One was taking bids on a rather major project, and entered a contract with the low bidder. A rogue then came along an undercut the low bidder, leading the hiring company to find a loophole out of the contract. When all came to light, believe it or not, the rogue went down like the Titanic after civil litigation was over with.
Now sure, the dynamics are a bit different, but would you really want to test those waters? Do what you want to do, you're a free man, but I'd hate to see something stupid happen to someone because they thought they were doing the right thing.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
I would love to own that coin!!!
Did the rogue then get the contract? If yes, your argument is like comparing apples to oranges. In the above case regarding the coin, the person contacting the seller never ended up buying the coin. Much different scenario.
This is exactly why almost nobody posts rips anymore. I find it in poor taste that you contacted the seller.
Not sure if they did or not, I heard about it in a casual conversation. Point is, who would want to defend themselves against such a scenario?
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
To put it more bluntly, an attorney would eat your argument up like a fat kid at a buffet
Agreed...the seller's worst case scenario is a neg.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
It is what it is. Fair game. A You Suck award isn't what it used to be.
They do not sell very often but the 40-45 grades did sell for 10K or so. If you got Lance @lkeigwin bidding on it, could go 100K!
It would have been nice if the seller was given some advice to walk the coins to an expert, not sure who that would have been in the Washington DC area where they live. I just hope they weren't selling the coins for someone who needed real money or that there are people in his household who are dependent on the money. If you look over the sales the items all went pretty cheap, and he was selling $20 gold pieces on ebay for under $1300. It doesn't happen too often. Like with this seller who was selling her parent's collection, coins were being listed with substandard photography as $800 buy it nows that ended up being worth well over $3000. http://www.ebay.com/usr/dianemzielestate Her parents died and left her with a collection to dispose of, and I was probably late to the game to let her know she was selling some items way too cheap. They don't know even how to approximately grade, attribute, consult price sheets and don't go to several honest professionals. Who is to say whether they "deserve" it or not? And ebay corporate doesn't lose sleep over communications with sellers unless they lose money. In this case they would have gotten much more money if the seller knew what he was doing.
I got the same message others who contacted him got:
"I identified it last year and planned to sell it though Stack's Bowers, but I didn't mark it. This year, I forgot and threw it in with a lot of capped bust half dollars I sold. I could have cancelled the sale, but the buyer would have litigated. My attorney said I'd lose.
"I'm getting a lot of messages about this. People must search the sold listings carefully. In the future, any coins I sell are going to PCGS."
Irrational buying and selling are bad for the hobby. There are plenty of people of means who can afford to pay what they are worth. Buys that end up being worth 50x purchase price creates a race to the bottom mentality, end justifies the means. "Like taking candy from a baby".
The seller doesn't sound particularly irate in his response. I detect a hint of "easy come, easy go." I have to wonder if the seller also cherrypicked it, and the auction result wasn't so bad because he/she made 50 bucks. If that is the case, then it was the previous owner who really got cherrypicked... whoever they are.
Another observation is that if the coin had never been attributed as a rare variety, and nobody ever paid big money for it, then nobody lost their investment. If true, then it is just a windfall for the new owner... assuming they know what they bought. If not, look for it on eBay with a $300 BIN in a couple of weeks.
I would guess in the range of $12k.
Lance.
Smoeone left a little $$$ on the table.
A quick review of his sales of a coin collection:
Two original 1899 $20 Lib.s that looks to grade at least MS62 sold for $1275 each, he lost at least 8% plus shipping. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1899-U-S-20-Gold-Coin-Double-Eagle-/252824284805
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1899-U-S-20-Gold-Coin-Double-Eagle-/252820916108?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1822 Bust 50c for $115: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1822-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-Original-Wayte-Raymond-Toning-/252826006308?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An $1821 for under $85: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1821-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-Original-Wayte-Raymond-Toning-/252826002755?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1807 Bust for $255: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1807-U-S-Half-Dollar-Draped-Bust-KM-35-/252825933165?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1834 Bust 50 for $80: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1834-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-/252826037654?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1826 Bust half for under $85: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1826-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-/252826017481?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1819 Bust 50c for $125: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1819-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-Original-Wayte-Raymond-Toning-/252825993963?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1810 Bust 50c for $65: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1810-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-Wayte-Raymond-Toning-/252825951431?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1811 50c for under $118: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1811-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-Damaged-/252831785171?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1808 for under $108: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1808-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-/252825940880?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1825 Bust 50c for $85: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1825-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-/252826011558?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
An 1820 Bust 50c for under $475: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1820-U-S-Half-Dollar-Capped-Bust-KM-37-Original-Wayte-Raymond-Toning-/252825998584?nma=true&si=DpKhAg0u2z%2FQZzRpovU9Rps2DEI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Interesting thread for sure!
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Lol, people aren't really that dumb are they??? To be intimidated by a threat of law suit??? Lol, that is meaningless, what a puss/$ ...
Seller would have been wise to cancel the sale and taken his chances with litigation.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Looks like the 1819 bust half was an 1819/8, large 9. Oops.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
There are so many good options to get market value with the coins he sold, the major overdates and some varieties are included free with grading by most of the grading services. You would think that anyone who is online savvy enough to sell on ebay would also be a member of the many collector forums. Raw coins can be tough for unknowledgeable sellers to accurately evaluate, that's what grading is for. I spoke to a show dealer who went to Baltimore to buy raw and cherry pick some nice coins but most of the better coins were all certified. Some people learn the hard way, plus on ebay you lose at least 8% plus shipping. An antique seller had a rare Vermont colonial a while back and was shocked to see it go for thousands in an auction. At least with a real auction you can at least approach market value.
And that 1822 they sold is an O-103 R5, probably worth 4x that much.
By the way, some of you are absolutely delusional if you think that a buyer wouldn't have a strong case against a 3rd party for tortious interference if they actually decided to subpoena and make an example out of them. Let's not conflate this with a lawsuit against the seller though, as I said before, that case would be a lot weaker and the seller's expensive lawyer would find a loophole most likely as mentioned above by others.
Every single rare variety out there, even run of the mill key dates were cherrypicked at one point or another. It's a well established practice in numismatics, like it or not. Why didn't a dozen of you message the seller last year about the 1829 O-120 that was bought for under $100 and re-sold for God only knows how much? Or that certain EAC piece a few years ago that went for 200 grand. Why don't you all email a certain well respected dealer, and tell him what a scumbag he is for picking off the R8 Draped Bust Half?
What is it about some of you, that you can't mind your own business?
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
Great score for sure!
75 G's? Is that some arbitrary number? Not sure where you got that.
What if someone told you they were going to sue someone for $30,000 who sold them a broken $40 printer? Would you be dismissive and say it'd be laughed out of court?
Google Gersh Zavodnki.
http://time.com/money/4359964/lawsuit-printer-craigslist/
This is the key part of the story:
"Costello says despite the legal nightmare, which has cost him upwards of $12,000 in attorney's fees, he has no plans to countersue Zavodnik. “I’ve had enough,” he said. “I don’t need him in my life anymore.”
Different story, but the same basic situation could apply. Why risk getting caught up in a nightmare? Legal defense is very expensive. I'm just saying, if someone really wanted to make an example of someone, it could be a nightmare for the do-gooder if someone were intent on making an example. Hopefully this will wake a few of you up to reality.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
If I were you, I would not comment anymore. You might give someone an idea to sue me for messaging the seller. That could cost me a lot of money, then I might have to sue you for getting involved as well.