I hope you send these discoveries out to a specialist- with so many incused ATB Quarters out there I'm amazed that this anomaly hasn't occurred before if it is just a mechanical doubling burp. I check all mine that I get back in circulation and haven't seen this; however, what Bodin posted with the 1984-D Olympic dollar has me scratching my head. This appears to be more; but, hope you get them verified, and can get this mystery solved. Good luck!!!!!
"That makes me think there is some other mechanism that may be occurring than a doubled die. Finding multiple examples with differences would not seem appropriate for a double die"
Exactly what I thought, too.
Some look like machine doubling and others look like recutting or repunching.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@Manorcourtman said:
Ok, some of the most convincing examples I've found for my Large letters over small letters theory.......E PLUR over e plur
Since these are incused letters/numbers might the "small" letters/numbers actually be the first kiss of die to coin blank with only highest points of die incused on blank giving what appeared to be a smaller and shallower impression on blank followed by second slightly shifted but deeper second strike appearing as larger letters and numbers?
@Bodin said:
Am I a jerk if I'm saying this reminds me a lot of the '84 olympics $1 "ddo", where the incuse lettering had doubled with split serifs .....but it was determined to be a result of die bounce on incuse lettering.
Been studying these pictures all weekend, and I think you are right. I now believe that the extra lettering is an extreme form of "machine doubling" where the raised letters on the die contacted the coins twice.
Look at the original picture of the "E." There are die flow lines that repeat on both impressions. This would not be the case if the design was hubbed into the die twice and each impression then wore randomly. You can see something similar at the upper left end of the 7.
Fascinating, but I do not believe it to be the result of a doubled die.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Manorcourtman said:
Not sure who started saying these are incuse? The letters and date are not incuse but raised.
Got one of the Iowa quarters in change yesterday. As on all ATB quarters, the date and the inscriptions on the outer ring are incused on the coins.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I'm now leaning towards machine doubling as well. But who knows. Who are our resident experts on this?
This states it well. Weird machine doubling due to the raised lettering and date on the die.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
When someone explains how MD produces a "small" date next to a large date with full split serifs I'll buy it. Until then I will just speculate and remain confused!! You should see these coins in person! They are very impressive!!
@Manorcourtman said:
When someone explains how MD produces a "small" date next to a large date with full split serifs I'll buy it. Until then I will just speculate and remain confused!! You should see these coins in person! They are very impressive!!
I would venture the ghost or doubled number/letter images appear smaller and thinner because they are lightly struck with just the high points of number/letter on die being impressed into metal.
I too believe this is a strange manifestation of machine doubling. Was waiting for Fred to chime in but maybe these pics will help. Hub doubling on incuse devices reduces their size while machine doubling enlarges them. Its kinda backwards. And as far as I know no incuse hub doubling on any quarter has been reported yet.
Checking change, I have no 'Mounds' quarters yet... guess a trip to the bank is necessary..... oh well...should also get another roll of halves after my last experience .. Cheers, RickO
I would like to say that I got my "Mounds" quarter in change while buying an "Almond Joy" bar, but it was actually at the donut shop.
Mmmmmmmm.....donuts!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Ok folks. The EXPERT, Dr. James Wiles has responded to my request for his opinion. IT IS NOT A DOUBLED DIE according to him. He read the thread and examined the pictures and just got back to me with his opinion:
"Unfortunately the doubling is the result of machine damage doubling on incuse design elements. It is not a doubled die."
I respect his opinion and will accept his answer. Thanks to all that had input in this thread! The coins are super cool nonetheless. They are also quite scarce based on my searches. It was very exciting finding something this interesting!! For those searching for them, good luck!!! They are as cool as any Doubled Die I've seen. The hunt goes on.....
@Manocourtman I completely agree that they are cool. And I too got goosebumps the moment I saw your closeups.
Sorry if I came across as the "debbie-downer". I too found similar striking on the peripheral lettering on the Yosemite SQ when it came out. I went to the Long Beach Expo showing it off, thinking I'd get congratulated.....I was laughed at by 2 dealers.
I'm glad this thread was made. Very educational!
Well, this keeps my Vision of Order in the Universe intact. I thought hub doubling was no longer possible with current production methods. This seems to still be true.
No reason not to get excited when the Vision gets challenged, though. Neat find for sure, and neat thread!
@Bodin said: @Manocourtman I completely agree that they are cool. And I too got goosebumps the moment I saw your closeups.
Sorry if I came across as the "debbie-downer". I too found similar striking on the peripheral lettering on the Yosemite SQ when it came out. I went to the Long Beach Expo showing it off, thinking I'd get congratulated.....I was laughed at by 2 dealers.
I'm glad this thread was made. Very educational!
I had this machine doubling on the 2010 5 oz Yellowstone sandblasted ATBs from the mint .
This is what machine doubling looks like when it involves incuse design elements. I wrote a Collector's Clearinghouse column about it in early 2014. The subject coin was an Olympic National Park quarter. Here's what EPU looks like:
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
I ordered some bags. A couple of P's and a single D.
I also understand that machine doubling on incused lettering gives ALL the appearances of die doubling but the OP's photo's don't show what I've seen in the past.
2011 Yellowstone 5 oz bullion piece.
Sooooo, it's a small investment and considering that my record on wise investments is not usually the best I figured, Why not?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I ordered some bags. A couple of P's and a single D.
I also understand that machine doubling on incused lettering gives ALL the appearances of die doubling but the OP's photo's don't show what I've seen in the past.
2011 Yellowstone 5 oz bullion piece.
Sooooo, it's a small investment and considering that my record on wise investments is not usually the best I figured, Why not?
Comments
Sports card companies have been suspected of "seeding" as well. Regardless, we have all the more reason to check our pocket change.
How does this compare to the D.C. Ellington error??
I hope you send these discoveries out to a specialist- with so many incused ATB Quarters out there I'm amazed that this anomaly hasn't occurred before if it is just a mechanical doubling burp. I check all mine that I get back in circulation and haven't seen this; however, what Bodin posted with the 1984-D Olympic dollar has me scratching my head. This appears to be more; but, hope you get them verified, and can get this mystery solved. Good luck!!!!!
"That makes me think there is some other mechanism that may be occurring than a doubled die. Finding multiple examples with differences would not seem appropriate for a double die"
Exactly what I thought, too.
Some look like machine doubling and others look like recutting or repunching.
Ok, some of the most convincing examples I've found for my Large letters over small letters theory.......E PLUR over e plur
Ok, something new. IOWA. Small I and small A
Finally a cool E over E and 7 over 7.
Dude what camera are you using to get such good detailed close ups?
Don't quote me on that.
Since these are incused letters/numbers might the "small" letters/numbers actually be the first kiss of die to coin blank with only highest points of die incused on blank giving what appeared to be a smaller and shallower impression on blank followed by second slightly shifted but deeper second strike appearing as larger letters and numbers?
It's a cheapo $40 10 x 200 USB Digital microscope.
Are these incuse? Isn't that on the pucks only?
They are incuse.
Not sure who started saying these are incuse? The letters and date are not incuse but raised.
Been studying these pictures all weekend, and I think you are right. I now believe that the extra lettering is an extreme form of "machine doubling" where the raised letters on the die contacted the coins twice.
Look at the original picture of the "E." There are die flow lines that repeat on both impressions. This would not be the case if the design was hubbed into the die twice and each impression then wore randomly. You can see something similar at the upper left end of the 7.
Fascinating, but I do not believe it to be the result of a doubled die.
TD
Very cool
http://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2012/01/high-bouncing-die-leaves-offset-incuse-machin.html
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=229539
http://www.doubleddie.com/144822.html
I'm now leaning towards machine doubling as well. But who knows. Who are our resident experts on this?
Glad that's cleared up. Had me confused and was going cross-eyed.
Yes!
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Got one of the Iowa quarters in change yesterday. As on all ATB quarters, the date and the inscriptions on the outer ring are incused on the coins.
This states it well. Weird machine doubling due to the raised lettering and date on the die.
More interesting than a extra corn leaf.
Great find and very cool.
Ok, you are correct! An optical illusion to me. I just checked and they indeed are incuse. Thanks for the correction.
When someone explains how MD produces a "small" date next to a large date with full split serifs I'll buy it. Until then I will just speculate and remain confused!! You should see these coins in person! They are very impressive!!
Out of curiosity, how common was the error in the roll or bag?
I would venture the ghost or doubled number/letter images appear smaller and thinner because they are lightly struck with just the high points of number/letter on die being impressed into metal.
Scarce!! Looked at over 1000, found 4 or 5 really great examples.
I too believe this is a strange manifestation of machine doubling. Was waiting for Fred to chime in but maybe these pics will help. Hub doubling on incuse devices reduces their size while machine doubling enlarges them. Its kinda backwards. And as far as I know no incuse hub doubling on any quarter has been reported yet.
I am in this camp also.
Still very cool though.
Did you check for a small letter variety as well?
ANA LM-6166
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Checking change, I have no 'Mounds' quarters yet... guess a trip to the bank is necessary..... oh well...should also get another roll of halves after my last experience ..
Cheers, RickO
I would like to say that I got my "Mounds" quarter in change while buying an "Almond Joy" bar, but it was actually at the donut shop.
Mmmmmmmm.....donuts!
Ok folks. The EXPERT, Dr. James Wiles has responded to my request for his opinion. IT IS NOT A DOUBLED DIE according to him. He read the thread and examined the pictures and just got back to me with his opinion:
"Unfortunately the doubling is the result of machine damage doubling on incuse design elements. It is not a doubled die."
I respect his opinion and will accept his answer. Thanks to all that had input in this thread! The coins are super cool nonetheless. They are also quite scarce based on my searches. It was very exciting finding something this interesting!! For those searching for them, good luck!!! They are as cool as any Doubled Die I've seen. The hunt goes on.....
@Manocourtman I completely agree that they are cool. And I too got goosebumps the moment I saw your closeups.
Sorry if I came across as the "debbie-downer". I too found similar striking on the peripheral lettering on the Yosemite SQ when it came out. I went to the Long Beach Expo showing it off, thinking I'd get congratulated.....I was laughed at by 2 dealers.
I'm glad this thread was made. Very educational!
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Well, this keeps my Vision of Order in the Universe intact. I thought hub doubling was no longer possible with current production methods. This seems to still be true.
No reason not to get excited when the Vision gets challenged, though. Neat find for sure, and neat thread!
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I had this machine doubling on the 2010 5 oz Yellowstone sandblasted ATBs from the mint .
Box of 20
This is what machine doubling looks like when it involves incuse design elements. I wrote a Collector's Clearinghouse column about it in early 2014. The subject coin was an Olympic National Park quarter. Here's what EPU looks like:
Dang It!
I ordered some bags. A couple of P's and a single D.
I also understand that machine doubling on incused lettering gives ALL the appearances of die doubling but the OP's photo's don't show what I've seen in the past.
2011 Yellowstone 5 oz bullion piece.
Sooooo, it's a small investment and considering that my record on wise investments is not usually the best I figured, Why not?
The name is LEE!
I too ordered a few bags. Darn it.