Possible U.S. Mint Experimental 1943 Copper Coated Steel Cent - An eBay find!
boyernumismatics
Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭
Hi all. I have just opened this package of what I just thought would be a toned 1943 steel cent. Boy was I wrong! I'm jittery with excitement and want everyone's input here as to what this is in specifics so I can send her off to our hosts! Here are quite a few photos under both a circular LED light and a Daylight CFL bulb in a lamp. It is also brown in hand on all surfaces, including the edges.
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What is it you think you have?
One of the experimental 1943 copper coated steel cents. I put that in the title
boyerugonnabedisappointed
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Thanks for the very informative post.
Likewise. I'd like some more background on a 1943 Steel Experimental Cent. Pull that out of a hat ? Maybe a Breen brainchild ?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Weigh it.
No, I did not "Pull that out of a hat." Here, I'll post you a few resources:
mikebyers.com/unique-1943-cent-13-piece-set.html
https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/five-piece-1943-experimental-cent-collection-ngc-total-5-pieces-/a/1136-2382.s
and so on.
If there are blank planchets, is it unreasonable to believe some were also struck? Just a thought.
What are "experimental 1943 copper coated steel cents"? Sounds like a high school science lab experiment.
There were Mint metallurgical tests...steel coated with a combination of 90% zinc, 4% antimony and 6% iron. Is this what you mean?
RWB, you're the expert here ("United States Pattern & Experimental Pieces of WW-II"). RB43-81, copper plated steel?
Lance.
And stop fingering (lol) your coins.
Weight is unlike a steel cent at 2.66 grams, and whatever this is ,is almost uncirculated. A heavily circulated steel cent I have right here weighs 2.70 grams right on the dot. My scale was zeroed each time to defer any error.
Eh, it seems to be a POS so what does it matter here? lol
It would weigh ~3.104g if it was copper.
refer to the above comment regarding them and I will post more resources as I come across them.
I know it could not be copper. I am stating it may be one of the copper coated steel experimental cents that were made during the time when attempting to find a suitable alternative to the copper cents for war reasons, as we all know.
The copper coated steel blank in the Heritage lot was specifically stated as weighing 2.9 grams. So how would you justify your AU or thereabout condition piece weighing only 2.66 grams ?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Try to keep up here. The OP claims it is a copper coated(plated ?) steel core cent.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Yeah I know my eyes are screwed from roll searching all day. My bad.
There are other lots (one of which is actually on the first link, copy and paste it), where one is 2.8 grams. It would not be unreasonable to believe that as an experimental coin, they made varying weights...is it? I'm just trying to think outside the box here, because experiments are experiments for a reason, trial and trial and trial finding what works best.
There are other experimental cents albeit the Antimony one is the most "popular." If experiments were indeed taken place, it would not be unreasonable to think that varying weights as well as having some struck (after all we did make plastic and even glass experimental coins then), would it be?
Interesting! Send it in. We will all be waiting. Good luck.
Magnet?
With a steel core, it attracts to a magnet. However, I just tested it under a Garrett AT PRO metal detector, which gives an indicator display number and audible indicator as to what the item may be. On a known 1943 Steel cent, it is a dull sound consistently ringing in at between 5 and 20. When I tested mine, it rang up with dull sounds but ALSO mixed in with "high tones" and rings up between 5 and 25, indicative of a higher conductivity metal being on the surface, such as copper (whereas a wholly copper cent comes in at a solid 79-80 on the VDI). Very interesting results.
OKAY, we discriminated against iron in our next test here and set a standard distance of 6 inches.
Our standard for this is a 1943 UNC steel cent from our dansco. It rang up as following on the AT Pro: Varying degrees of lower numbers ranging from 5-30, but normalizes around 28.
1958 D Copper cent- SOLID 80
My coin in question-- 32-47
Some odd results here.
The plastic and glass experimentals were produced by private corporations under contract with the Treasury Bureau. None of the privately produced experimentals were permitted to have any design incidental to existing U.S. coin designs. What you have could only have originated from the U.S. Mint. Unless you can find some Mint documentation conclusively proving that your piece is of an experimental Mint design, you're chasing a dream, not that there is anything wrong with that.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
To my newb eyes, I see an AU steel cent that someone plated then it was AT'd
I recall that the standard response to someone claiming to have a "copper 1943 cent(!)" is to put a magnet to it.
The implication is that there are deceptive post mint copper plated steelies that people THINK are copper.
So, you're going to have to prove this was a mint product, and not something created to deceive, or entertain.
May I recommend that, as another poster suggested, a copy of "Pattern and Experimental Pieces of WW-II" be consulted by those interested in this item. Research shows two possibilities:
"9/9/1943 Moore 15 Zn coated steel w/copper coating; Apollo Metal Works; 1943 1-cent dies. Coins struck from coated stock. Will look much like std bronze cent, but with surface imperfections. Weak bond between Cu and Zn."
"9/9/1943 DM 4 Zn coated steel w/copper coating; Apollo Metal Works; 1943 1-cent dies. Mint coins coated by Apollo outside mint. Will look much like std bronze cent."
The first version - struck on Cu coated Zn/steel should look different than the second version - normal 1943 Zn/steel coated after striking. The latter could easily be imitated by any 10-yr old with a battery and some very simple chemicals. The first version would require detailed study my an experienced metallurgist. A cheap XRF would not help; a "metal detector" is useless on this item.
XRF spec would get a read if you have one in the area. IMO, looks like a "home" copper plated example
Well, just Love coins, period.
As RWB noted above, there were copper plated steel blanks used for tests back then. The OP from the OP states this may be one.
I
I just observe what I can see and think the plating on the 2 sides is unequal with the obverse appearing heavier.
I must admit, now that I think more about it, it's possible the Apollo version was made this way.
I still think it is AT, and that sends up red flags right away, though.
As for counterfeits, our fiends in the criminal communes make bronze 1943 and steel 1944 for the unfortunate. A simple magnet is not a fool proof test.
I will have to purchase a copy of this book. Thank you for the very informative post. I appreciate it very much.
Ignoring the AT claim (because I've come across many legitimately toned steel cents and copper cents of similar liking), I appreciate your input as well. I will have to learn more about the "Apollo" coins, or even (most likely what I will do) is send it to our hosts and see what they say. Who knows, right?
You say a metal detector is useless, but one would imagine a machine designed to (and that has) been able to detect a small copper cent at a depth of over a foot into rich, black, dense Louisiana soil could give at least SOME differentiation between the "copper coating" on this cent and a regular steel cent. As I've stated, the readings were noticeably different for the coin in question and have me flustered as to what the reason may be.
I am a bit sorry to say that I lean strongly toward a steel cent plated with copper - not at the mint. But is suppose it is possible...
I used to work in a plating shop. We did stuff like this all the time for fun.
You strip the original zinc plating off with a solution of hydrochloric acid. If fizzes for a while and then you have a clean steel surface to work with.
Many steel cents were reprocessed by stripping and then re-plated with zinc. Some had a clear chromate dip applied to help preserve the new and pristine surfaces. I can't tell you how many of these I have seen over the years.
So it is not real hard to imagine stripping the zinc and then replating with copper. I could have made hundreds a day, and it was simple.
I'd be interested to know the plating thickness. There is a magnetic device (non-destructive) that easily measures plating thickness by measuring how much force it takes to pull a magnet from the surface of a plated steel part. For nominal protection, I would expect a thickness of 0.0002" - that's two tenths of a thousandth of an inch. More generous coverage would be 0.0004" - double the previous example. If the thickness is much lower than .0002" it is simply a copper flash - like the precious metal thicknesses you see on all the hyped up fake bullion pieces on TV. I also understand that these days there are electronic testers, but they are a bit pricey unless you are in the plating business.
Keep us updated on what you find out.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
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I have some toned copper colored 1943 cents as well. What makes you think yours was made at the mint that way? Are all of those edge shots showing us ejection scratches that went through the plating, therefore pre-strike?
The edge shots were meant to show the color of the planchet, more than anything.
Doesn't hurt to be optimistic in this world, eh? lol.
This was my first thought as well....
I sure hope it works out for you but there are many reasons why this is most likely not anything special. I would love it to be proven otherwise, but in the meantime please stop manhandling potentially important coins. Those pictures are going to give me nightmares...
If it makes you feel any better I handle ALL of my coins by the edges professionally. For the sake of taking photos and zooming in with one hand, and attempting to hold the coin in the other, unless you have a 3rd arm and hand, it's difficult. I do thank you, though, for the assumed ignorance on my part.
You are free to handle your coins any way you want, but speaking for myself I had proper handling of coins so ingrained in me as a young collector that to this day I instinctively do not even handle pocket change so cavalierly.
Your coin has a nearly new copper surface. If it were a well circulated coin it would have a heavy brown patina that would be stable and protect it from skin oils, but the surface of a newish copper coin is extremely delicate and a deposit of oils from your skin can turn into corrosion. That would be a shame if it defies the odds and turns out to be an important rarity.
Collectors such as myself consider it a nature toning process. Yes! we love to touch our coins, mark our territory and feel the love~
Keep us posted... The odds are against a major find... however, that is why we look at our change and search rolls/bags and junk boxes..... Surprise finds are not uncommon... Just look at the DDO 1919 Merc found last year.... Cheers, RickO
Can someone explain the rationale for thinking this coin is anything other than a normal business strike 1943 cent which was copper plated long after it left the Mint? Occam's Razor would seem to apply here, absent extraordinary evidence to the contrary
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I am pulling for you all the way buddy!..got nothing bad to say. I will thank you for at least starting the thread cause I just learned a couple cool new things...I love learning from outlets other than google and my wife
Get it verified and share the results here with us, congrats if you found something new
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I have had this coin sitting in my "junk drawer" for a few years.
But now I think maybe I should at least investigate the possibility that it is one of the original copper-plated steel test strikes.
It appears to be much more authentic-looking than any other copper-plated steel cents that I have seen.
Note that it does stick to a magnet (that was the first thing I tested when I came across it years ago !).
Get it off to PCGS asap and let us know.....
bob:)
Yeah any copper 43 that jumps to a magnet should go to PCGS immediately.
I don't know who would counterfeit a copper coated steel. It doesn't look cast.. at least in the picture and the date looks fine. There are even die areas, and what might be either shadow or slight doubling in pluribus.
Wouldn't that be something if many of these "fake" copper 1943 cents that are magnetic that have been dismissed over the years turned out to be legit. I am not sure how they can be authenticated (would need to confirm that they were plated prior to striking) but maybe it can be done. That would be one heck of a numismatic story.
Yeah no kidding if you didn't come across these things and they were legit this whole time, you haven't done enough roll searching.
It's amazing what 2 photos can show. One makes the coin look like it was dipped in Welch's Grape juice and given a partial fingerprint above the date. Another shows more of a golden color. BTW I found a 1943 coated steel cent years ago. High hopes of grandeur were quickly dashed when it failed the magnet test.
I don't know who would counterfeit a copper coated steel.
Emphasis added. There are thousands of fake copper plated 1943 cents, most of them created once the advertisements looking for a genuine example started appearing in comic books and magazines in the 1950s. Some were done as novelties, others were undoubtedly meant to fool collectors, but fakes absolutely exist and in large numbers.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Not to be a nay-sayer.....
But, NAY, Nay I say.
)
It just smells funny saying that "Sure, plenty of fakes exist....but I think MINE is a real mint product!!"
I think you have a long row to hoe to get anywhere close to making that case....