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Hail the grumpy and crusty neanderthal coin dealer.

CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 23, 2017 12:09PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Much has been said about the divot in rare coin prices over the last handful of year. Also noted is the cadre of stubborn old dealers that have stuck to their guns on pricing. Should they in fact bug out and reduce their selling prices, the flood of fresh (well at least saleable) coins would undoubtedly cause further deterioration.

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    ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,422 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You are going to have a hard time getting full market from astute buyer on a coin whose population has mushroomed in the last several years, where you now have obvious differences between nice for the grade and just made it for the grade coins in the same holder.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
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    AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep

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    Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Elcontador said:
    You are going to have a hard time getting full market from astute buyer on a coin whose population has mushroomed in the last several years, where you now have obvious differences between nice for the grade and just made it for the grade coins in the same holder.

    Enter CAC.

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    TonerGuyTonerGuy Posts: 590 ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2017 3:47PM

    You're assuming that most dealers are knowledgeable & well informed in their pricing. Most dealers are lazy and rely on a piece of paper they buy from someone else to tell them what they should price most of their coins.

    But then again, it can work in your favor.

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    hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @elmiracoin

    One thing the coin market has going for it that many other collectibles don't is that many contain precious metals. When precious metals has another bull run I think prices will rebound.

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    ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,422 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wabbit - Re CAC. Based on what I have seen, sometimes the sticker is helpful, other times it is not. I'd say on most gold and Morgans, I'd pay attention to it.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
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    originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,915 ✭✭✭✭

    @hchcoin said:
    @elmiracoin

    One thing the coin market has going for it that many other collectibles don't is that many contain precious metals. When precious metals has another bull run I think prices will rebound.

    I've always been of the mind that, come what may, my "dreck" that happens to be made of gold and silver will still always be made of gold and silver. I like owning a bit of gold and silver, and as such, those kind of coins make me happy. :smile:

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    boyernumismaticsboyernumismatics Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    @Elcontador said:
    You are going to have a hard time getting full market from astute buyer on a coin whose population has mushroomed in the last several years, where you now have obvious differences between nice for the grade and just made it for the grade coins in the same holder.

    Enter CAC.

    If only we COULD become a member! LOL

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    SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2017 8:29PM

    @hchcoin said:
    @elmiracoin

    One thing the coin market has going for it that many other collectibles don't is that many contain precious metals. When precious metals has another bull run I think prices will rebound.

    For those coins that have a substantial portion of their value in bullion value, I would agree with you. However, for those coins where bullion is only a small fraction of the value of the coin it won't make much of a difference. I make no predictions here as my crystal ball is cracked, but it seems to me that unless there is a new influx of money, predominantly by new collectors, into the mid-range non bullion based coins, say in the $3,000 - $9,000 range, I suspect that these values will continue to decline over time. Obviously there is a strong correlation between how people feel about themselves financially and how much money they will spend collecting whatever. If the middle class continues to get hammered in the US, then less money will enter the collector side of the coin market where the coin's value is predominantly non bullion based.

    With regards to dealers, I know those that I like and prefer to deal with. I will always go to their tables first at a show, and if they have a decent website, I'll browse that too. However, unless the dealer is one I dislike/distrust, I'm willing to buy from pretty much any dealer provided he/she has the right item at the right price. In that spirit, there are dealers that I will not deal with, not because I dislike/distrust them, but simply because I've learned over the years that their prices are always too high, and they won't drop the listed price by much. Let's face it, unless you are down to the last slot in a set that you GOTTA' have, there are ALWAYS other neat coins out there that can be had for quite reasonable prices, that whisper in your ear and say, "Take ME home".

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    DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There's a ton of Canadian dealers on Ebay still expecting 80% to 100% of Canadian Trends prices for their coins.

    I see the same coins, month after month.

    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I recall a post a few years ago that Stewart Blay made about a well known Neanderthal dealer..... but, don't want to get in trouble. :D

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bottom line is, there are many dealers that are a delight to deal with - find out who they are and start enjoying life!

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,875 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There just isn't one way to be a dealer, takes all kinds and everybody is in different phases of interest and caring.

    It's funny and makes me wonder though, I personally spent way, way more on coins when I had less money and more debt than I do now. Dave Ramsey would have ripped me a new one if he saw what I was spending. There is just so much changing in the scene now and let's face it, it's me that's getting a little grumpy and crusty and that's got me less apt to peal off the Benjamin's. I suppose we all go through some types f hot and cold interest levels.

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    BigpoppasBigpoppas Posts: 241 ✭✭✭

    @WildIdea said:
    There just isn't one way to be a dealer, takes all kinds and everybody is in different phases of interest and caring.

    It's funny and makes me wonder though, I personally spent way, way more on coins when I had less money and more debt than I do now. Dave Ramsey would have ripped me a new one if he saw what I was spending. There is just so much changing in the scene now and let's face it, it's me that's getting a little grumpy and crusty and that's got me less apt to peal off the Benjamin's. I suppose we all go through some types f hot and cold interest levels.

    Now this a great post ❤

    Every dealer, collector, noobie, flipper and every situation is different

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    HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Coinstarlted, you rock. Keep it up. If you can.

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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmmmm - Alice or a TeaParty??

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The "sales prevention department." That's rich, dude. Oh...GAWD!

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    mustangmanbobmustangmanbob Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In another business I was in, they were referred to as the "Crap" (nice word inserted) farms.

    Pig farms, chicken farms, etc. created tons of "crud" and it was pumped into huge holding tanks to "mellow"

    There was lots of "crud" out there, no one wanted to deal with it, but the plant held onto acres and acres of it, and everyone was happy it was 1) contained 2) not in their backyard.

    You just prayed the walls did not burst and everyone was waist deep in crud.

    Be happy that silver spike to about $50 twice, and tons of crud were melted, otherwise, there would be more mountains of VG / F 1962 Washington quarters out there.

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    AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    She is correct. No more favors will ever be needed from this dealer.

    Perhaps ye speak of Charming Charmy or Love-able Laura?

    Neither. The interaction was with an unknown wonk in the sales prevention department of a larger organization.

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    CharlieDontSurfCharlieDontSurf Posts: 31
    edited March 26, 2017 5:09AM

    In the grand scheme of things I am a newb at collecting (Morgans). I visit several local dealers and do business with them and its great. I've had no problems, they are informative, great teachers, and fair on sales. Local dealers all know each other and appear to have great relationships with each other. One of my favorite dealers does a lot of bullion sales.

    Other dealers visit him regularly on bullion issues and buying/selling. 3 times I have been there when one dealer from a different fairly local city was there. We were introduced and I was told this dealer was a BIG Morgan guy and knew them well and he offered to look at some of mine. (Which was kind and generous, he didnt have to) He may have been alive when they were pressing Morgans. This dealer has the personality of a rock. He is extremely knowledgable, knows it and has no problem letting you know that you arent. There is a wide difference in teaching someone and talking down to someone. I'll never visit his business.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know a dealer they've called "Beetlejuice" for years, looks like that and a neanderthal. But he generally does know to adjust prices downward in keeping with market reality. I know a couple dealers who had too much stale inventory, who went down for the count, kicked the bucket.

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    ElmhurstElmhurst Posts: 775 ✭✭✭

    My local shop believes in it "mark it up and move it on," rather than to try to get retail for anything. They are all about turning their cash over ASAP.

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    @Coinstartled said:

    @Coinstartled said:

    She is correct. No more favors will ever be needed from this dealer.

    Perhaps ye speak of Charming Charmy or Love-able Laura?

    Neither. The interaction was with an unknown wonk in the sales prevention department of a larger organization.

    How large of a shipping discount did she give you?

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    CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wasn't a shipping cost issue. It was regarding a coin that had some serious issues with the reverse. Any more details would expose the dealer which I prefer not to do.

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    originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,915 ✭✭✭✭

    @SkyMan said:

    @hchcoin said:
    @elmiracoin

    One thing the coin market has going for it that many other collectibles don't is that many contain precious metals. When precious metals has another bull run I think prices will rebound.

    For those coins that have a substantial portion of their value in bullion value, I would agree with you. However, for those coins where bullion is only a small fraction of the value of the coin it won't make much of a difference. I make no predictions here as my crystal ball is cracked, but it seems to me that unless there is a new influx of money, predominantly by new collectors, into the mid-range non bullion based coins, say in the $3,000 - $9,000 range, I suspect that these values will continue to decline over time. Obviously there is a strong correlation between how people feel about themselves financially and how much money they will spend collecting whatever. If the middle class continues to get hammered in the US, then less money will enter the collector side of the coin market where the coin's value is predominantly non bullion based.

    With regards to dealers, I know those that I like and prefer to deal with. I will always go to their tables first at a show, and if they have a decent website, I'll browse that too. However, unless the dealer is one I dislike/distrust, I'm willing to buy from pretty much any dealer provided he/she has the right item at the right price. In that spirit, there are dealers that I will not deal with, not because I dislike/distrust them, but simply because I've learned over the years that their prices are always too high, and they won't drop the listed price by much. Let's face it, unless you are down to the last slot in a set that you GOTTA' have, there are ALWAYS other neat coins out there that can be had for quite reasonable prices, that whisper in your ear and say, "Take ME home".

    Can't disagree with anything SkyMan says, as again, a significant portion of my gold and silver coins take their value from the bullion angle. As for coins worth $3K - $9K, they might be nice to own, but unfortunately I have none that valuable. Ah well.

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    Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think so, at least on ebay. I have been tracking a coin for 8 months now that is priced 3 times the "current market", Non CAC... They have come down 10% so now its 2.5 times to high. I have talked to the seller, but no dice.

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m pretty sure the bullion value of my half-cent collection won’t save me.

    :)

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    CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thebigeng said:
    I don't think so, at least on ebay. I have been tracking a coin for 8 months now that is priced 3 times the "current market", Non CAC... They have come down 10% so now its 2.5 times to high. I have talked to the seller, but no dice.

    You have gotten my interest. If you are still following an exponentially overpriced coin for 8 months, it must be pretty scarce.

    Care to tell us more?

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    originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,915 ✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said:
    I’m pretty sure the bullion value of my half-cent collection won’t save me.

    :)

    It's true, perhaps why I have only 3 half cents in my collection, representing the basic "easy" types. But I really do like them!

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    Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Naw, I don't want to trash this dealer, they are good folks . Just holding out.

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    topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:

    @thebigeng said:
    I don't think so, at least on ebay. I have been tracking a coin for 8 months now that is priced 3 times the "current market", Non CAC... They have come down 10% so now its 2.5 times to high. I have talked to the seller, but no dice.

    You have gotten my interest. If you are still following an exponentially overpriced coin for 8 months, it must be pretty scarce.

    Care to tell us more?

    Sources for colorized silver eagles are considered private. :#

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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I try not to let my memory get in the way of a good deal. The prices are dictated by the market, despite what I remember from the old days.

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    topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TwoSides2aCoin said:
    I try not to let my memory get in the way of a good deal. The prices are dictated by the market, despite what I remember from the old days.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,091 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2017 11:30AM

    There are good and bad in every type of businessman, usually if someone has been at it for a long time they have merit. But the direction of good business practice should be honesty, fairness and service.

    'Men were brought into existence for the sake of men that they might do
    one another good.' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. vii)

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    BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cicero got his head chopped off, all for being a big mouth.

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    OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I attended a local coin show in Denver a few weeks ago. I think that many of the dealers are neanderthals, but it could also be that they are trying to sell off their own collections and trade a few coins in the process. They seem to be totally reliant on the grey sheet and all promise to pay strong money. I had a few IHC proofs to sell ranging from 64 BN to 67 BN. But did sell a few 64's for less than I paid, but no interest in the 66 and 67's. Obviously they do not have a customer base that wants top end material.

    OINK

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    TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Neanderthal coins, you say? There's an under served market.....

    :blush:

    Easily distracted Type Collector

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