Let's Have a Debate (about the hobby)

KellenCoin

Hey!

I am always interested to hear different people's opinions of the hobby. So, the topic of this post is a debate on:

Are numismatic organizations/clubs getting too caught up in things that prevent them from their purpose (for example, getting too political so that they no longer spend as much time working on educational pursuits.)

My personal opinion is that numismatic organizations at least in part have strayed from their intentions. I still believe that they are doing at least part of their mission, but they often support programs that do not support their membership.

This is my CURRENT opinion. I hope that the discussion in the comments below helps shape my and your opinions.

Please keep it civil. This is a debate/discussion, not an argument.

coinkat

Numismatic organizations have lost touch with how to reach out and provide a compelling basis to bring new collectors into the hobby. Coins and the history behind them would resonate if the platform of telling that story was elevated to a level to get attention. The 1950's and 60's are not coming back. Collecting coins has a terrific story but that story needs a connection to be relevant among those that have the potential to appreciate what the hobby is and what it can be.

DRUNNER

Numismatic organizations need to connect to this new generation via exciting explanations of coins and history. The mintages, conditions, coins in use, interesting stories, and something . . . anything . . . that takes coins away from the realm of investment and places an emphasis back on the tie-in to history . . . would be important.

I love to tell the stories of the 55 Double Die . . . or the 1883 NC nickel . . . or the 1922 Lincoln. When I am in front of a group or just conversing with friends, they find the tales fascinating. It would be the same if we were to propel the history of numismatics into the public . . .allowing them to embrace some history.

How about the now-forgotten Depression of 1892-1896, and how it affected mintages of the Morgan Dollars? Move that discussion into an area where a few still remember, and more study in school . . .the Great Depression of 1929-1933(4) ? Look at the mintages . .tie in the lack of use or need of coinage to history, and the consequent rarity or survivability of coins from those eras??? What about the steel cents, and their less-known compatriots . . the 1944-45 'Shellcase' versions?

I teach school . .and can always tie-in something to our numismatic history. If it is "To Kill a Mockingbird", I hand out 1900 and 1906 Indians. If we are doing "Where Eagles Dare", Lincolns and WarNicks of the era fit in super. Kids just love that. Adults are the same . . .

Let's drive numismatics by the history behind the mintages. The decisions made that were determined by history. THAT . . .starts some interest . . . and some objectives our numismatic groups can get behind . . .

Drunner

JJSingleton

@KellenCoin said:

My personal opinion is that numismatic organizations at least in part have strayed from their intentions. I still believe that they are doing at least part of their mission, but they often support programs that do not support their membership.

Can you provide some examples. I am unclear of what programs you are referencing. Thanks.

Hydrant

Let's not....have a debate. Life's too short.. Let's just enjoy what we do.

TurboSnail

I am certain that there is a large community out there willing to collect modern coins just for fun. They care less for the condition and coin's population. And I do believe that was the reason most of us first started to collect coins.

However during the past decades, collectors had emphasized on the older mintage, population, quality and slabs while driven the price of coin collecting to an expensive hobby that would detour newer generation away from purchase in the secondary market. I could had bought some decent coins with one lunch money when I was a boy. But it would cost me three meals in these days.

And now I have kids. Lets say fishing for example. How much was a fishing pole back in the 70's-80's and how many coins could you get in exchange for it? However in these days, anyone can walk into Walmart and get a set of fishing gear for less than $20 which is almost the same as grading a coin. What would be a better choice? A low budget fishing gear that could catch bigger fish than guys next to you while having a summer full with fun and memories or one single slab to put your coin in?

ricko

Coin collecting is a hobby that is both personal and social in nature. For some, it is solely personal...others love the social aspect. That is where clubs (and forums) come in.... Clubs always become dominated by strong personalities...just human nature. Depending on the human factor, they can be fun and interesting endeavors, or, they become showcases for a few personalities. In the latter case, they may often drift into areas outside of numismatics. I prefer the personal side of the hobby, other than a couple of forums - and I do miss the coin shows. Coin shows, while mainly social, can also be enjoyed by the solitary collector. What this all boils down to is this..... seek out that which you enjoy. If it stops being enjoyable, change it or leave. Cheers, RickO

ambro51

Whe you speak intelligently about a coin to most people....you might as well be speaking Greek. Our specific and erudite lines of thought are in the stratosphere to most of the non coin collecting public. Imagine if you had to endure a 2 hour meeting of people who collect small unicorn toys little girls have. They knew these things in and out. Makers, paint styles, production numbers and so on and YOU had to listen to all this. :::::: point is, you can't teach a hobby.

roadrunner

@TurboSnail said:

>

However during the past decades, collectors had emphasized on the older mintage, population, quality and slabs while driven the price of coin collecting to an expensive hobby that would detour newer generation away from purchase in the secondary market. I could had bought some decent coins with one lunch money when I was a boy. But it would cost me three meals in these days.

And now I have kids. Lets say fishing for example. How much was a fishing pole back in the 70's-80's and how many coins could you get in exchange for it? However in these days, anyone can walk into Walmart and get a set of fishing gear for less than $20 which is almost the same as grading a coin. What would be a better choice? A low budget fishing gear that could catch bigger fish than guys next to you while having a summer full with fun and memories or one single slab to put your coin in?

I think you're assigning the blame for rising price of coins since the 1960's or 1970's to the wrong area. It's basically due to rising US debt, inflation, etc. What hasn't gone up in price since 1969? If a fishing pole hasn't risen in price, it's probably only because of the quality being lowered. My 1822 XF bust half was worth $27 back in the late 1960's, my pump action Crossman BB gun cost $22. Can't buy that kind of quality for near that price today. Recreational gear, cars, the old 10c-15c full sized candy bar, 10 speed bike, and most collectibles have all risen in price dramatically, even the baseball cards we collected in the 1960's. A brand new set of - 1969 Topps cost about $45 new back then. One of my friends still owns it today. That would cost $2,000 or more today. Even baseball collectors getting shut out. We can still fish with a stick, hook, and string line for a couple bucks....though a fishing license might cost multiples of that.

What would be a political agenda of a Coin Club? Never really thought that was the case unless the senior members were running for ANA Governor or something. There are still very inexpensive coins out there for young collectors....especially in nickels and pennies. The silver and gold coins have followed the price of bullion (and debt) much higher over the past 5 decades. The coin boom of the 1950's to 1960's set of ideally for young baby boomers. The coin clubs have their work cut out for them to duplicate that set up and the changing demographics.

UnclePennyBags

I'm 38 and most of my Friends and peers are in the 30 - 40 range, and not one is interested in coins... I show off a lot of my new finds and while they can appreciate it for the age and condition they have a hard time understanding how an item can sell for hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands when face value is $1.00 or if it has asilver value of $15.... They all also seem to think that gold and silver just constantly climbs in value and is not the roller coaster we all ride...

the other day I received an ms66 Omaha bank hoard 45 D war nickel in the mail and when my girlfriend saw the coin and invoice she shook her head and told me she had a whole little jar full of nickels that look the same that she would sell me for the money I paid... And I thought I got a decent deal buying it for less than grading fee would have cost LOL

David1940

Interesting... OP didn't say anything specific about getting kids interested in coin collecting, but many have brought that up. Is that the main purpose of coin clubs? Educating children on coins?

KellenCoin

@coinkat said:
Numismatic organizations have lost touch with how to reach out and provide a compelling basis to bring new collectors into the hobby. Coins and the history behind them would resonate if the platform of telling that story was elevated to a level to get attention. The 1950's and 60's are not coming back. Collecting coins has a terrific story but that story needs a connection to be relevant among those that have the potential to appreciate what the hobby is and what it can be.

I agree. Having basic websites is not enough anymore, they need to expand and make compelling social media accounts and things of that sort to appeal to the newer generation.

KellenCoin

@DRUNNER said:
Numismatic organizations need to connect to this new generation via exciting explanations of coins and history. The mintages, conditions, coins in use, interesting stories, and something . . . anything . . . that takes coins away from the realm of investment and places an emphasis back on the tie-in to history . . . would be important.

I love to tell the stories of the 55 Double Die . . . or the 1883 NC nickel . . . or the 1922 Lincoln. When I am in front of a group or just conversing with friends, they find the tales fascinating. It would be the same if we were to propel the history of numismatics into the public . . .allowing them to embrace some history.

How about the now-forgotten Depression of 1892-1896, and how it affected mintages of the Morgan Dollars? Move that discussion into an area where a few still remember, and more study in school . . .the Great Depression of 1929-1933(4) ? Look at the mintages . .tie in the lack of use or need of coinage to history, and the consequent rarity or survivability of coins from those eras??? What about the steel cents, and their less-known compatriots . . the 1944-45 'Shellcase' versions?

I teach school . .and can always tie-in something to our numismatic history. If it is "To Kill a Mockingbird", I hand out 1900 and 1906 Indians. If we are doing "Where Eagles Dare", Lincolns and WarNicks of the era fit in super. Kids just love that. Adults are the same . . .

Let's drive numismatics by the history behind the mintages. The decisions made that were determined by history. THAT . . .starts some interest . . . and some objectives our numismatic groups can get behind . . .

Drunner

Hi! I agree entirely with your first paragraph. I have started bringing coins to school occasionally, and the most popular ones by far were the 1792 Decime piece and the 1883 Racketeer Nickel; because they had stories.

As for school, I fully support any programs there. Sam Gelberd of the ANA used to be a teacher, and he would let the kids choose a foreign coin from a bucket if they got an A on a test. That struck me as a good idea.

KellenCoin

@JJSingleton said:

@KellenCoin said:

My personal opinion is that numismatic organizations at least in part have strayed from their intentions. I still believe that they are doing at least part of their mission, but they often support programs that do not support their membership.

Can you provide some examples. I am unclear of what programs you are referencing. Thanks.

@Hydrant said:
Let's not....have a debate. Life's too short.. Let's just enjoy what we do.

"A good leader can engage in a debate frankly and thoroughly, knowing that at the end he and the other side must be closer, and thus emerge stronger. You don't have that idea when you are arrogant, superficial, and uninformed."
-Nelson Mandela

shorecoll

Local clubs need to do more YN activities, do outreach to schools, etc. I think the national organizations are so dependent on dealer contributions that they can't play the Consumer Reports role in the industry that I think they should play. Having to be a super-insider knowledgeable pro to find out who the doctors are is wrong. ANA and ANS should find a way to go after them, even if it involves spin-off orgs just to do that. They should be leading the cleaning debate, the gradeflation debate, the TPG difference/standards debate, etc. and I don't think they do any of these things currently.

neildrobertson

This is a really difficult topic to speak about generally, because each numismatic organization has its own culture and leadership. The only organizations I am involved in are my local clubs and the ANA.

My primary interaction with the ANA is through their monthly publications. I would say that the organization is in principle extremely supportive of furthering their stated goals. I do think that there are some issues with the general content. There tends to be the constant exercise of trying to make extremely esoteric numismatic subjects relevant or interesting, and there is a lack of general and beginner topics. To some degree it's all dictated by the reader base and the volunteer author base, so you can only complain so much.

At the local level, politics does get brought up since people can be very passionate about it. Leadership generally has the capacity to keep it in check.

I don't think either has lost its direction, but they could always be doing more. It was a major missed opportunity when a non-profit or neutral organization like the ANA failed to control the TPG industry. There's still a big opportunity for them to be an authority in the conservation and preservation of coins. (which I think is exactly what shorecoll said)

AMRC

Depends on the Organization. Asking if they strayed, assumes they were on the right path to begin with. I do not think we can support such a blanket statement. What I can say is that the highest priority item for any Numismatic Organization should be the sharing the opportunity that such a hobby affords.

denali12

1. Most People do not get local paper anymore- no more "paper boys" collecting coins each week to fill albums and be interested in hobby
2. Many people pay even fast food by debit/credit card- again much less people even see coins anymore- harder to get interested in a hobby when never see coins
3. The run up of gold/silver 8-10 yrs ago- created IMO a huge schism in the industry of "hobbist" vs "investors" who saw just making a quick buck and didn't care about history or the "why" of Coins

JJSingleton

@KellenCoin said:

@JJSingleton said:

@KellenCoin said:

My personal opinion is that numismatic organizations at least in part have strayed from their intentions. I still believe that they are doing at least part of their mission, but they often support programs that do not support their membership.

Can you provide some examples. I am unclear of what programs you are referencing. Thanks.

@Hydrant said:
Let's not....have a debate. Life's too short.. Let's just enjoy what we do.

"A good leader can engage in a debate frankly and thoroughly, knowing that at the end he and the other side must be closer, and thus emerge stronger. You don't have that idea when you are arrogant, superficial, and uninformed."
-Nelson Mandela

I ask a simple question and get a Mandela quote thrown at me. OK, let me try again...I don't think I am arrogant or superficial, but I am apparently uniformed to you opening post. So I ask again, what programs are you referencing.

carew4me

Hate to be blunt.

Coins reflect our history and our heroes. American history is no longer taught as something special in the arc of the human experience, Heroes of the past are now recast as ex-slave holders. We are churning out kids who don't value her exceptionalism.

If kid's are taught that our history is dark and oppressive at its core why would a young person want to "collect" that?

TwoSides2aCoin

What's to debate ? That I'm having more fun than most coin people ? Okay, you win.

KellenCoin

@TurboSnail said:
I am certain that there is a large community out there willing to collect modern coins just for fun. They care less for the condition and coin's population. And I do believe that was the reason most of us first started to collect coins.

However during the past decades, collectors had emphasized on the older mintage, population, quality and slabs while driven the price of coin collecting to an expensive hobby that would detour newer generation away from purchase in the secondary market. I could had bought some decent coins with one lunch money when I was a boy. But it would cost me three meals in these days.

And now I have kids. Lets say fishing for example. How much was a fishing pole back in the 70's-80's and how many coins could you get in exchange for it? However in these days, anyone can walk into Walmart and get a set of fishing gear for less than $20 which is almost the same as grading a coin. What would be a better choice? A low budget fishing gear that could catch bigger fish than guys next to you while having a summer full with fun and memories or one single slab to put your coin in?

You make some interesting points. I agree that coin collecting as a whole has gotten more expensive, but I believe there are still plenty of coins in the market that are cheap, or common. As for the grading services, that is a whole separate topic.

KellenCoin

@ricko said:
Coin collecting is a hobby that is both personal and social in nature. For some, it is solely personal...others love the social aspect. That is where clubs (and forums) come in.... Clubs always become dominated by strong personalities...just human nature. Depending on the human factor, they can be fun and interesting endeavors, or, they become showcases for a few personalities. In the latter case, they may often drift into areas outside of numismatics. I prefer the personal side of the hobby, other than a couple of forums - and I do miss the coin shows. Coin shows, while mainly social, can also be enjoyed by the solitary collector. What this all boils down to is this..... seek out that which you enjoy. If it stops being enjoyable, change it or leave. Cheers, RickO

Changing the hobby in any way, good or bad, requires that you know what people want. That is what I hope to achieve with this forum.

KellenCoin

@ambro51 said:
Whe you speak intelligently about a coin to most people....you might as well be speaking Greek. Our specific and erudite lines of thought are in the stratosphere to most of the non coin collecting public. Imagine if you had to endure a 2 hour meeting of people who collect small unicorn toys little girls have. They knew these things in and out. Makers, paint styles, production numbers and so on and YOU had to listen to all this. :::::: point is, you can't teach a hobby.

True! That is why I respect those authors who write books for beginners, because they have to describe a hobby without using many of the words we know!

KellenCoin

@UnclePennyBags said:
I'm 38 and most of my Friends and peers are in the 30 - 40 range, and not one is interested in coins... I show off a lot of my new finds and while they can appreciate it for the age and condition they have a hard time understanding how an item can sell for hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands when face value is $1.00 or if it has asilver value of $15.... They all also seem to think that gold and silver just constantly climbs in value and is not the roller coaster we all ride...

the other day I received an ms66 Omaha bank hoard 45 D war nickel in the mail and when my girlfriend saw the coin and invoice she shook her head and told me she had a whole little jar full of nickels that look the same that she would sell me for the money I paid... And I thought I got a decent deal buying it for less than grading fee would have cost LOL

Yes, you bring up an interesting thing here. It is not only a deficit of YNs in the hobby; we just need more people interested in general.

KellenCoin

@David1940 said:
Interesting... OP didn't say anything specific about getting kids interested in coin collecting, but many have brought that up. Is that the main purpose of coin clubs? Educating children on coins?

I do not think that is the main purpose of clubs, but like the saying goes: The only government is local government. It applies here too. Getting kids involved in a local level (school or local club) helps them grow and eventually join national clubs and gets them more involved. So local clubs are kind of the recruiters.

KellenCoin

@shorecoll said:
Local clubs need to do more YN activities, do outreach to schools, etc. I think the national organizations are so dependent on dealer contributions that they can't play the Consumer Reports role in the industry that I think they should play. Having to be a super-insider knowledgeable pro to find out who the doctors are is wrong. ANA and ANS should find a way to go after them, even if it involves spin-off orgs just to do that. They should be leading the cleaning debate, the gradeflation debate, the TPG difference/standards debate, etc. and I don't think they do any of these things currently.

I agree entirely.

KellenCoin

@neildrobertson said:
This is a really difficult topic to speak about generally, because each numismatic organization has its own culture and leadership. The only organizations I am involved in are my local clubs and the ANA.

My primary interaction with the ANA is through their monthly publications. I would say that the organization is in principle extremely supportive of furthering their stated goals. I do think that there are some issues with the general content. There tends to be the constant exercise of trying to make extremely esoteric numismatic subjects relevant or interesting, and there is a lack of general and beginner topics. To some degree it's all dictated by the reader base and the volunteer author base, so you can only complain so much.

At the local level, politics does get brought up since people can be very passionate about it. Leadership generally has the capacity to keep it in check.

I don't think either has lost its direction, but they could always be doing more. It was a major missed opportunity when a non-profit or neutral organization like the ANA failed to control the TPG industry. There's still a big opportunity for them to be an authority in the conservation and preservation of coins. (which I think is exactly what shorecoll said)

I agree about the TPG industry. Unfortunately, from my thoughts, it would be nearly impossible to create a completely unbiased grading service.

KellenCoin

@AMRC said:
Depends on the Organization. Asking if they strayed, assumes they were on the right path to begin with. I do not think we can support such a blanket statement. What I can say is that the highest priority item for any Numismatic Organization should be the sharing the opportunity that such a hobby affords.

Yes, I did not really mean to have that large a statement. I think it misrepresents what I think. I agree about your last point.

KellenCoin

@JJSingleton said:

@KellenCoin said:

@JJSingleton said:

@KellenCoin said:

My personal opinion is that numismatic organizations at least in part have strayed from their intentions. I still believe that they are doing at least part of their mission, but they often support programs that do not support their membership.

Can you provide some examples. I am unclear of what programs you are referencing. Thanks.

@Hydrant said:
Let's not....have a debate. Life's too short.. Let's just enjoy what we do.

"A good leader can engage in a debate frankly and thoroughly, knowing that at the end he and the other side must be closer, and thus emerge stronger. You don't have that idea when you are arrogant, superficial, and uninformed."
-Nelson Mandela

I ask a simple question and get a Mandela quote thrown at me. OK, let me try again...I don't think I am arrogant or superficial, but I am apparently uniformed to you opening post. So I ask again, what programs are you referencing.

Oh I'm sorry, I actually didn't mean to reply to your post with that quote. Again, I apologize.

Zoins

@shorecoll said:
Local clubs need to do more YN activities, do outreach to schools, etc. I think the national organizations are so dependent on dealer contributions that they can't play the Consumer Reports role in the industry that I think they should play. Having to be a super-insider knowledgeable pro to find out who the doctors are is wrong. ANA and ANS should find a way to go after them, even if it involves spin-off orgs just to do that. They should be leading the cleaning debate, the gradeflation debate, the TPG difference/standards debate, etc. and I don't think they do any of these things currently.

I'm not sure what it would take for the ANA to go after doctors since the ANA hires doctors, and doesn't really go after them today. There seems to be a somewhat tight relationship between the ANA and doctors.

One possible change with respect to the ANA and dealers is that 2 candidates are running for ANA President this year. Both candidates are good people and have done a lot for the hobby, however, one candidate is for a less tight relationship with the PNG dealer association while the other is for a more tight one.

I've seen this debate for years. I'm not sure needing to become a super-insider knowledgeable pro is going to change. You would think that it would ideally change, but perhaps it's just something people need to get used to given how entrenched doctors and doctoring are in the hobby. Right now, it does seem necessary to become a super-insider knowledgeable pro before investing more in certain series.