Very obscure obverse "doubling" errors 1964P US10C Roosevelt
Azurescens
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(Edited title and content of OP).
I have been opening some uncirculated rolls of 1964 dimes and this is puzzling me.
Has anyone else noticed doubling on the obverse? Particularly in (1)964, where IGWT tends to doubled the worse, or in (19)64. The digits shift SE.
No doubling on profile, initials or Liberty. I thought I kept looking at machine doubling until it started to trend non-sequentially across the rolls.
I know a literal billion of these were made, but has anyone else had similar observations? When the doubling occurs it's not the entire coin, or entire date, but does seem to form a pattern.
I see a bit of over polished dies, slightly off-center pieces... but the date doubling and IGWT doubling appears to stay fairly standard and uniform. I've observed none in Liberty, initials, or Roosevelt.
Whether on center or off center, these things remain true: liberty and the bust with initials are always fine. In the pieces that exhibit this doubling feature in 64, don't have such a bad IGWT. In the pieces where 964 shift SE, and the 4 hangs much lower than usual, the doubling is at its best in IGWT and appears to have new layers, and appears taller, or in the case of the O, have a whole new ring inside and one near the top of the letter.
In the most severe cases, the 9 has lines all around it and inside it; the 6 has shown it's best; and the 4 hangs lower not only with the traditional NW/SE shift, but also a little fatter. The two most severe cases have TRU shifting south, S and T seem to go east/northeast (and the final T becomes fatter and taller with lines on the outside).
At first I thought mechanical doubling, but in all specimens photographed below, Liberty, initials, and Roosevelt don't shift at all.
I'm very confused. I think they might have re-engraved these dies. I don't know the entire minting process, but it looks like (to me at least), that these were failing 1964 dies that kept getting patched and patched until they finally gave up. There are photos and more info below.
Cheers!
Comments
Pick one of the better examples and post a pic, we would love to see one.
But it's weird too because they have immaculate reverse. The 1 in the date always looks fine when the 964 or the 64 double. And if it was mechanical doubling, LIBERTY would be wrong too right? But it's fine when these engraving errors happen?
It looks like there's two different kinds. The 1(964) has more doubling on IGWT, but the 19(64) not so bad. But there. A coin that was struck like 1% off center still has a solid reverse but doubling on IGWT 64. Or for example, the 1(964) also has a squashed "we" not a slightly flatter W with an okay E.
Is this stuff that just happens? Like a few thousand get by, and I catch a small string of them in a roll? It's harder to find a gem in this latest roll than the last. I went at this roll like the last, just checking for the best strikes with no chatter. It's taken me forever to get this last roll done because it's one thing after another and I can't get that level of perfection with so many issues.
Is this common? Or aspects of a DDO? I don't own cherry pickers nor know varieties (returning collector) and Google only has so much that brute force doesn't work.
Okay. So here's what I'm looking at. In all samples, Liberty, initials and profile were unaffected. In the 1(964) and 19(64), there appears to be doubling on the numbers and IGWT. You'll see on the progressively worse coins that IGWT almost looks taller, and both G and O seem to have another "layer" to them.
Here's how the top of the roll toned as for anyone who appreciates this sort of thing.
Here's one of the 19(64). IGWT shows minor details. The 9 hardly shows, but is there in the shadow. The 1 is unaffected and so is Liberty and all else. You'll begin to see lines on the inside of O, D of "god", and the U in trust also gets progressively worse until the S and T do it on the 1(964) pieces.
A fair specimen out of the roll.
Here is the 1(964) example, with all other details fine except IGWT, which shows increasing "doubling", and taller GOD, with more errors around the whole word, and the WE has flattened. TRUST almost looks like it tried to get fixed up. The 4 drops down in relation to the 6. It's visibly lower than most specimens, except those that share these traits. Everything else as you can see is otherwise fine.
This one is off center and you'll see the thin rim here. But, you'll also see the 1(964), with the 4 at its lowest and the 964 at their best going NW to SE, but still no change to the 1 or Liberty etc.
What I'm seeing as a pattern is that the worse the 64 gets, the worse that IGWT gets. As IGWT gets worse, so does the 964. I don't see the 964 IGWT on the 64 or vice versa.
The worse the date gets, IGWT worsens, and the lower the 4 drops, the coin is finally off center. But, I've seen examples of 964 and IGWT on a perfectly fine rim with fine liberty. "WE" is still weak; it must have been super polished because it's the toughest part for me to find on a nice strike. In short, a fine rim or off center rim has no effect on these errors (but they can and do appear on fine planchets and off center).
I'm gonna get a migraine I hope this was worth it haha, I've still got more examples but I'm guessing there's a simpler explanation.
keyman64 is very knowledgeable regarding dimes and their different varieties etc... Plus he
s a good guy! You might want to try messaging him but with that said I havent seen him around here lately...Here's another example. The 964 isn't terribly bad, but you can see how the top of the TRU begins to have a solid band across it. The left of the T almost connects to the left top of the U via the R. You can see here, too, that other examples show the same error inside the U. It's as if there's another version of the 964, perhaps the beginning stages before it all went bust..?
The 4 hasn't completely dropped yet to be "a low 4"s. The NW has the same mark, but not as prominent as the 964 above. It's as if this is a transition piece in between the least severe and most severe. The outside of the D in GOD has yet to show marks, and it's not as tall and wide as the extreme examples, nor show another "ring" on the O. The NW corner of the G would show if this was shelf doubling.
There's doubling at the top of TR, but if it was shelf doubling it would shift southeast like the date right? But it doesnt. This example shows how the G starts to get this error too, inside and outside the part that differentiates it from the letter C. It shifts west on the inside hook and doesn't even connect by less than a hairline. In the last example above, there's no empty spacing.
Here's one of the more extreme cases in a better strike.
Note that now, the lines on the NW of the 4, 6 and 9 are prominent. The inside of the 9 now has them, as does the tail of the 9. The longest part of the 9 is the newly added "doubling", not the existing 9. It's by a micrometer and you can faintly tell here, but it is longer than the 9 by next to nothing. It is trippy haha.
GOD clearly shows these lines, completely surrounding the O and D, and reconnecting the curl of the G that is slightly separated by less than a hairs width in some cases. They are taller, fatter, and O has another "ring" layer to it.
The TR still has the bar over it, U is more prominent than ever, the S has taken it on all sides and it's on the tight of the T. The final T is also fatter than it should be. It now shows at the top right of the letter, where it didn't before. TRU shifts south while ST goes south but east-northeast.. makes no sense.
In these severe cases, I've noticed that the W sometimes looks like another top left piece got stuck, like another sharp < but pointing to 11:00. The example above also shows a little devil horn or whatever on the W.
In this case and another, there is a raised bar of metal behind TRU. There is a smaller piece on an example above.
Thank you all for letting my nerd out and photo dump here. Roosevelt dimes are my #1, and I admire all the pieces you all share. It is truly a lovely design, and it's nice to know other people appreciate it even more than I do!
This site has been a plethora of knowledge and I haven't been here a month. Been a collector since I could remember. Took a hiatus and I'm older now so it's cool you guys run at a steady pace. It truly is a privilege to post here, and I really appreciate the time and effort you folks take to check my coins for me.
You're all the best
wife says goodnight, see you all in the morning!!
Great photos, the sketch below helped me more than anything...
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
Oh cool hey thanks for the reference material and for the compliment... I always worry you folks don't see what I post, since usually things come out blurry. The 20x loop fixes everything, and I can grayscale coins just by photographing above them. I still can't get my lilac or lavender or aquamarine colors right.
So this is an example of machine doubling? Why doesn't Liberty or the bust shift, too? Is it a different type of machine doubling?
With the way IGWT changes, it looks like die deterioration doubling. I think I am looking at a progression of an overused piece. The way some things move on the coin can't just be shifting one way.. the rest of the coin would, especially initials. If it's vibrating and lubed (lol) after being used a lot, a die could do this?
What do you make of the extra spike on the W's? I picked a random roll with an obvious 1(964) on it, and it had a spike just as prominent if not better.
Does anyone else ever find these?
I'm sorry it's been a lifetime since I was actively collecting and I appreciate everyone's help. I don't quite remember things right all the time. I know some of you know how that is.
Machine doubling....Your pictures are really great.... what sort of scope/computer rig do you use? Assuming your camera is tethered... Cheers, RickO
Just a Samsung note with android OS. 13mp I think. This camera is only good when I have a loop or it focuses on the background instead.
Die erosion doubling
I see the dies are pretty worn, given the excessive lines in the field from grinding/polishing. The doubling IMO comes from that; when die become heavily used/processed the numerals, etc. tend to show 'doubling' around them. This comes from repairing/dressing up the die to get more use from it. Not a doubled die; no notable additional value. BTW... nice pics.
I found a couple more of these today. Notice the die crack from his chin to rim on the first set.
The doubling gets worse in this order: 196(4), 19(64), 1(964), then 964 with a bump under IGWT, then the die crack as shown below in the first picture.
I hope they aren't too fuzzy I don't know what's wrong with my camera today.
Coin 1
Coin 2
Coin 3
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Why is there that spike in "W"(e)?
I believe you have Machine Doubling. Nice pix!
Later, Paul.
Thanks for checking in @Stooge. I appreciate it a lot.
For machine doubling it's super cool! Never seen anything like it, especially so localized and predictable.