Gem Half Cents & Large Cents in Pogue V
Analyst
Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭
There is an amazing offering of gem quality half cents and large cents in Pogue V. I am certainly not recommending every single copper coin in this auction. I am referring to the offering overall. Invariably, the Pogue set of large cents that will be remembered for generations, one of the all-time best sets of large cents 'by date'!
I am a little concerned that much of the coverage of Pogue V on this forum has been negative or neutral. This is an event about which we should be excited. Indeed, Pogue V is a tremendous sale.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 21: Copper Type Coins in 5th Sale
"In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
1
Comments
It is a great sale! I think the reason it has been neutral is because many of us cannot afford it, so it is harder to get excited.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
amen,
Love to have the 1799 and even more so the fabulous 1804 but it takes deep pockets to buy these.
The person who keeps putting forth malicious remarks, which seem cynical in a post above, should take note that my articles are educational in nature and not aimed at attracting clients. Consider the twenty-seven articles that I have written so far on classic U.S. coins for less than $500 each. It is unlikely that I will be getting rich from readers who spend $100 to $500 per coin.
Classic U.S. Coins for Less Than $500 Each, Part 27: Capped Bust Half Dimes
Kellen:
This is an issue addressed in my current article on copper type coins in Pogue V. Moreover, I wrote an article last year as to why people who cannot afford the coins are and should be excited about the Pogue IV sale. Writing an article that is addressed to people who cannot afford the coins does not, in any way, benefit me financially, besides my usual compensation for writing articles.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 17: Importance of the 4th Sale to Collectors who Cannot Afford the Coins
An alternate way of addressing the issue raised by Kellen is to think about art, historical manuscripts and sports memorabilia. In an art history class, would it make sense for a student to say that he is only excited about the paintings that he can afford to buy? In my opinion, to be knowledgeable about art, there is a need to learn about paintings that are unaffordable.
While there are fads in art and in coins, there are paintings and coins that remain central. The works of Rembrandt, Van Gogh and Da Vinci will remain important and will continue to be held in high esteem. Works by Picasso, Miro and Ernst have earned important places in art history, too.
In regard to baseball, material relating to Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb will always be important and symbolic of important times in the history of the sport. There is not a need to afford items to be excited about them or to enjoy learning about them.
Negativity on these forums.....never seen that happen before......ROTFL.
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
All we've heard from CoinCommando since they showed up here is what everyone else can't do or how everyone else doesn't measure up to their "super secret insider" standards. Or how much money everyone else isn't spending at Newman, Gardner, Pogue, or Blue Moon. Frankly, I'd like to know just a single positive input from CC on what they've ever done for the hobby. What major collections have they built? What important coins did they buy at auction this year or last year...or ever for that matter? What big auction sales did they light up and cherry pick like a Stewart Blay? Did they ever grade for a TPG? Did they ever serve as a major consultant for another major dealer when an important collection was being negotiated/purchased? Just one single input would be a breath of fresh air. Getting tired of hearing what everyone else around here can't do....and what CC does.
Try to buy the 1855 large cent?. If I'm not mistaken Larry Whitlow/Mike Printz/Joe O'Connor had that same coin in hand somewhere around 2003-2008. I recall Larry showing me a fresh OGH 66 with a few flecks at a major show (ANA, Balty, FUN). That looks just like the coin...as it was amazing. How many could there be that clean and pristine? I asked for a price and Larry wouldn't give me one though I think he hinted at the $12K range. I'm sure I could have afforded it. He had a home worked up for it though (Joe O'Connor/Cardinal?). That wasn't the first time he wouldn't price a coin to me. So there you go big guy. I tried to buy it. Or one exactly like it. Naftzger can grade it or any other one MS70 RED if they like, but it sure isn't close to perfect, no 19th century MS coin is, let alone a large red copper. Why are you tossing that MS70 stuff out here, putting your foot in your mouth? MS70? These aren't ASEs!
Who cares if CAC likes it? I liked that 1855 LC way before CAC was around. I didn't need a sticker to try and buy it. Tried when it was affordable to me. At $15K and up...not a coin for me anymore. 1855 cent? I'd rather buy the 1855 half dollar PCGS MS66 50c (ex Pryor, ex Stack) out of Pogue. I did own it for 7 years and wouldn't mind owning it again. The Pogues should have bought it from me at $30K, instead of paying $54K its last time out at auction in what must have been crazy bidding. It's probably not bringing near $54K this time around.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6QPW0
UPDATE for post-Pogue April 1st 2017.
The 1855 half brings under $38K. The 1855 cent goes for $35K. They had similar values back in 2002/2003 too.
.
did i really just come from a thread where someone posted they were "honored" to join this forum, right to this?
i have enjoyed and noticed a LOT of new members since this latest forum software change. for the majority, it has been interesting and i'm glad at least some of this oldies have stuck around, especially informative and prolific posters. not the i've been here all of 3 minute members and i'm going to set the records straight ones.
i'll be watching whom is here 1, 3, 5 etc years from now (latest forum change). i'm betting the "steam" runs our LONG before then for many.
the good thing is that we've been up and down on many rides here and one thing is true and reliable, the ones that can't last, don't, for the rest of us, we end up having a much richer experience afterwards.
how odd, i was just remarking to myself just how calm and enjoyable things were becoming after this latest forum change, finally. with a few minor and quick hiccups aside.
i guess we are going to get these from time to time as the track record has proven. all the other newbs like this i've seen over the past few years showed almost a bit of promise, and guess what, they are nowhere to be seen now, nor have been for a while.
not a single member on this forum i have even the least amount of respect for is hiding in the shadows.
.
PCC, no one here is forced to read anyone's posts. I'd recommend if you don't find Analyst's posting to your liking don't read them. If PCGS admin thinks someone is self-promoting , they can decide that for themselves and take action. It's not like coin dealers don't come here to push their sales, or worse yet, promote their "bigness" going back to the 1960s....lol. Other researchers show up here and they are universally welcomed. I can think of a half dozen off-hand.
I don't always agree with every point that analyst makes nor do I like the fact that virtually every post is linked to an article of his BUT it is true that I happen to enjoy his articles and read them every week. No one else is reporting on the high end portion of the classic coin market like he does.
I too have learned plenty from Analysts' comments, including keeping up with the upper end market since I don't do this full time any more. I wouldn't trade their contributions for all the Commando's that have joined up in the past couple of months. If not for Analysts' links to the articles, I probably wouldn't go out looking for them.
I don't hold ill will toward anyone and enjoy some of the back-and-forth...but I am surprised since some fairly decent people have been banned from here for nicer comments that the ones CC has been making. Maybe they're just missing some secret key words. CC, I am hoping for some good industry background posts, since you've been around that long.
If there's so much misinformation running rampant around here why hasn't it ruffled the feathers of other dealers and major market players over many years who certainly know which end is up: NJCC, Mr. Eureka, Joe O'Connor, Blay, TDN, CNN, CRO, Fred Weinberg, EagleEye, Wondercoin, NENCoin, TomB, Mike Printz, CaptHenway, Bill Jones, Lakesamman, NIC and numerous other dealers/major players around here that probably number in the hundreds? These guys tend to speak up when they see stuff they don't agree with. Did CC think they were uncovering some sort of secret forum conspiracy to obfuscate the truth?
agreed !
I don't follow the boards nearly as often as I used to...for a variety of sad reasons. However, I wanted to chime in here to confirm, despite coin commando's comments, that lot 5224, the 1855 MS66+ is indeed the coin Larry and I owned long ago, in an OGH MS66 Red holder. I have my images from years ago that do in fact showcase a few minute carbon spots...which RR refers to so his memory is spot on. Interestingly, those don't seem to be as noticeable. I know the history of this coin...it is a memorable coin!
MP
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
I wonder if these boards are ever moderated anymore.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I rather enjoy the back and forth, its a learning experience. If I ever hit the Powerball I'll know who to look up.
CoinCommando:
I have been the winner of the NLG award for Best All-Around Portfolio on multiple occasions. In some ways, I have published the most about rare coins, other than QDB and a couple of veteran auction cataloguers. This remark by CoinCommando is clearly malicious and slanderous.
For more than two decades, I have been the leader in reporting news regarding rare, classic U.S. coins, and in analyzing coins, collections and auctions. Please consider more than 370 articles on CoinWeek.com, more than fifty articles that were published on CoinLink and hundreds of articles in Numismatic News newspaper and other Krause publications. Additionally, as has been stated on the CoinWeek site for years, I am involved in private consulting and other research projects. I have certainly tried very hard to be of service to coin collectors.
My series of articles on the Pogue Family Coin Collection recently won an award from the NLG.
Pogue Family Coin Collection Part 18 – Half Dollars and Bust Dollars Fare Well in 4th Auction
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 1: Finest 1796 –97 Draped Bust Half Dollar
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, part 16 – Capped Bust Dimes
PRC:
Not all relevant topics can be addressed in all threads. Moreover, this is not an accurate statement by PRC. Many of my posts in this forum are very long. I take seriously the views of the participating members. Usually, I carefully read every post in a thread before posting. I often cite others at length by name and take the time to explain why I agree or disagree with their respective statements.
Returning to the theme of this thread, which I started, it is noteworthy that much of the coverage of Pogue V on this forum has been negative. CoinCommando has just about condemned the PCGS grading of the coins in Pogue V. There has been endless negative discussion of 1804 dollars, especially about the failure of the Childs-Pogue 1804 to sell last May. CoinCommando wrongly said that this coin 'turned,' a word that is generally used to describe later, unintended chemical reactions or surface transformations on doctored coins. The Childs-Pogue 1804 has never been doctored.
Before I started this thread, no one was emphasizing, on this forum, the great importance of the Pogue set of large cents, one of the all-time greatest. Even now, people are making negative remarks and not discussing the incredible offering of gem copper coins in Pogue V. My current article is obviously pertinent, as it is about opportunities to acquire gem half cents and large cents of several design types in the Pogue V sale.
I agree with this.
I find @Analyst's articles worthwhile, I enjoy reading them and I learn from them. As a member of this forum, it would be nicer if he participated in more conversations not about his articles, but I do like his topics and his detailed follow up on discussions / questions so overall a very big benefit to the discussions here. Please continue posting and do not let the naysayers stop you.
I remember seeing the 55 as well. Same coin for sure.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
CaddyShack:
I wonder if CoinCommando and CaddyShack are the same person? Did he or she join or rejoin this forum for the purpose of attacking me?
It was CoinCommando who attacked the PCGS grading of the Pogue Collection coins.
CoinCommando:
For the whole Pogue Collection, probably more than half of the coins were approved at CAC. As I said already said, 65% to 70% of the coins in Pogue I; I have the exact number in my notes. I have yet to view all the coins in Pogue V. There is no doubt that I know how to grade. No one, though, can bat 1.000. Moreover, I have indicated in past articles that some Pogue Collection coins have problems. This was also true of some coins in the Eliasberg Collection, the Garrett Collection, the Norweb Collection, and the Newman Collection. Nonetheless, these are among the all-time greatest collections.
CoinCommando has been bashing the Pogue Collection rather than putting forth positive remarks about it.
The Pogue V sale merits positive remarks. It is one of the all-time greatest offerings of large cents and half cents. Some (not all) of the Liberty Seated coins are excellent, too.
CaddyShack:
Of course, I am familiar with the coin. I wrote about that 1811 half cent when it sold in 2014. I viewed it at the ANA Convention in 2013.
Were there really three bidders participating above the $1 million level in January 2014? Did anyone provide more in depth coverage of the Missouri-Tettenhorst Collection than I did? Does CaddyShack really know what he or she is talking about?
The Missouri Half Cent Coin Collection, Part III: Astonishing $18.26 Million for Tettenhorst Set!
The Missouri Half Cent Collection, Part II: Tettenhorst, Superb Gem 1794
CaddyShack:
I did not "knock PRC"! He criticized this thread. I provided a rational explanation. In any event, I have great respect for PRC. If he has confided in CoinCommando or Caddyshack, he might have made a mistake. Malicious people can be dangerous. Do malicious people often contribute to knowledge and overall well being?
Don't feel badly, Analyst. I have had my share of run-ins with CaddyShack. I think that this entity is here to irritate people, especially that who have a reputation for numismatic expertise.
I love the old copper, but I won't buy an Unc. pre-1815 copper unless I know it has been its current holder for over 20 years (which is why I preferred the OGH for my RB copper). I had a scary experience when a Draped Bust MS 65 BN Half Cent started developing PVC in holder eight years after I bought it from one of the most reputable people on the planet.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I am actually happy Analyst writes his posts. I do not always agree with what he writes and in some cases I strongly disagree with his opinion and judgements on grades and quality, but I enjoy reading his articles.
And yes, he is not a grader, he is not a collector and he is not a dealer and some of his opinions and judgements on coins might be questionable but at least they make us think.
Hi Caddy, my skin is fine, thanks for caring. I first got very very upset about Analysts posts and judgements as he was attacking a few coins I bought at Pogue, like the wonderful 1796 half Cent PCGS 67 RB, but at the end of the day I said, this is a free world and everybody should be able to say his opinion. And anyways there are many opinions out there, almost everybody has a different one. I also bought the 1795 FH Dollar PCGS 66, against the will of my dealer Joe oConnor back then! He didnt like the coin while I and many others think the coin is wonderful, including John Albanese. The coin also is CAC. So the way I deal with all of this is to just listen to all opinions to learn and collect the facts and then make my own opinion. Greetings from London !
At the same time, exposure to a lot of high grade, powerful US coins can school you in grading. I would suspect that Analyst can grade a lot better than the majority of US coin dealers, most of whom don't attend the bigger shows, and don't attend big auctions and just don't get the needed exposure and repetition needed to become a very competent, high end grader. There's a lot of excellent graders out there who were never dealers, and never TPG graders. While competing for a living turning raw coins into slabbed coins is probably the best way, it's not the only way.
Looks like Coincommando deleted all their forum entries, and went home. 3/20/17
I have to admit that before I opened this thread, I thought "oh great, another link to a coinweek article..."
Although I find your articles informative, I find it hard to believe that they need promoting on these forums. I have enjoyed most of them as I see them appear on Coinweek.
That being said, thanks for starting a thread for @roadrunner to speak some knowledge. Always a good time!
That last sentence is sure to draw some negative fire from you know who. I only profess to list the sum of my experiences/influences, or the sum total of various inputs to form an analysis. It can become "knowledge" if it's mostly correct or can stand up to scrutiny. CC mentioned my ex-1867-s 25c in another thread. Here's the forum tell-all thread from 2016 on that coin. If he wants to identify any misinformation, have at it.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11454369/
PRC:
Although I have been an enthusiastic collector in the past and I deal on rare occasion, the only part of this post that I find to be unfair, inaccurate and harmful is the assertion that "he is not a grader"! CoinCommando and Caddyshack have unjustifiably and illogically attacked my qualifications, and PRC just added fuel to a fire that was burning out.
How are the best graders to be ranked, and who is to have the final say regarding the grade of a coin?
Some graders at TPGs just spend a few seconds on each coin and do not use a magnifying glass, according to my sources. More so than anyone else, I justify my grades. If I say that a coin grades 65, I can, with advance notice, prepare an explanation of my reasons. I compare it to other coins of the same date or type of similar quality. I discuss specific hairlines and contact marks. I talk about the level of eye appeal.
A coin may have the level of eye appeal that is associated with a 66 grade and a technical score on par with a 64 grade. In some cases, though not always, the grade of such a coin will balance out to 65.
Rather than say if a coin is original or not original, I discuss the degree of originality with factors specified. I talk about light, medium or harsh cleanings. I carefully distinguish dipping from cleaning. While a so called expert will say, "I think it grades MS-65," I can sometimes provide enough evidence to justify a 65 grade in a court of law or before a panel of scientists. I write more notes about the physical characteristics of famous rarities than anyone in the history of coin collecting.
Most (not all) of the people who are sharper graders than I am do not care much about the coins. They care about 'maxing out' the grades at PCGS. I have communicated with many of the top 50 or so graders in the nation, some of whom I know very well. While I admit that their respective batting averages are higher than mine, the difference in batting averages is not as great as some of my critics suggest. Moreover, I explain and justify my grades and tell people the truth about my thoughts. Many of the top graders just say that a PCGS-graded 66 coin grades 66 or is a candidate for an upgrade, and will not say anything else. How often do they point out that some coins should be downgraded or put in genuine holders?
In addition to discussing coins with ethical graders in the highest echelon, including JA and Charlie B, who I feel honored to know, I discuss coins with crackout artists and coin doctors. I am aware of many of their techniques. I have spotted many doctored coins that almost all other experts have missed.
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
Deleted--misread the above post.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
It's not that you can't grade - everyone can to an extent - it's rather that you often dismiss contrary opinions out of hand. For instance, when I stated that several leading graders agreed with me that the Newman 1796 quarter's surfaces were a bit off, you dismissed that and said I couldn't be right. Of course, later in the thread two chimed in. And iirc, another who publicly agreed with my view is PRC.
I enjoy Analyst's articles; they make me think in new ways about approaches to collecting.
I appreciate his linking to them from this forum, because I don't have time to keep up with all of the online numismatic happenings. I rely on this forum as my clearinghouse.
I do not expect to agree with everything I read; that would be boring. Analyst's articles are thoroughly researched and logically presented. Whether I agree or disagree, they exercise my brain.
Thanks, Analyst!
Thank you, Professor Liz, whoever you are?
TDN:
It really did not occur to me that this interpretation of my behavior was a source of recent hostility and malicious remarks. I was under the impression that writers were being unfairly and illogically stereotyped, and it was assumed, again illogically, that people who risk a lot of money are likely to understand the items that they are buying.
At an auto dealership, the top salespeople have certain personality characteristics and are often not knowledgeable about cars. The owners of the most successful auto dealerships might not know much about cars either, such as the benefits of a transmission cooling apparatus. I will never be convinced that the coin dealers who make a lot of money are generally more knowledgeable about coins than the people who write about coins after carefully studying them and engaging in suitable research.
More so than anyone else, I have likened coin grading to batting in baseball. Admittedly, this is an imperfect analogy. In the realm of coins, multiple batters may face the same pitches, and a batter can sometimes come back again the next day to face the same pitches again. Even so, it is an excellent analogy in that a batter who strikes out or 'grounds out' is not committing an error; such outcomes are just part of the nature of the game. All coin experts mis-interpret aspects of many coins.
One of the points that I have been trying to convey is that I do discuss coins with other experts. I may examine a coin one day, talk about it with another expert that night, and then view the same coin again the next day. This approach has become frustrating as, over time, the number of people who know how to grade coins AND will honestly reveal their thoughts has decreased. At lot viewing sessions, there are quite a few dealers who are seeking coins to doctor or to upgrade without doctoring. There are hardly any who seem to care about the coins and figuring true grades.
TDN:
IIRC, I discussed the coin with JA, Matt K., Richard Burdick and, I believe, Jason, all of whom graded the Newman 1796 quarter as MS-67! Further, JD was raving about this coin in public. Moreover, one NGC shareholder was willing to buy the coin with a million dollars of his own money, though he was not the top bidder. I viewed that coin in Rosemont, Illinois, in August 2013 and then on two different days in NY in November 2013.
I apologize to TDN and PRC for not carefully considering their views on the Newman 1796 quarter. I promise to write again about the Newman 1796 quarter in the future. I will then review my notes and engage in further research. I hope that the champions and the antagonists regarding this coin will cooperate at that time.
Analyst - You write very interesting articles and i enjoy reading them. I only wish more folks write with the same knowledge and enjoyment that you do. Keep it up and its ok to be controversial and challenge the system.
I enjoy reading Greg's articles and I am looking forward to attending the auction!
Sunshine Rare Coins
sunshinecoins.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
Pogue is coming, I cant wait !!!
You`re a good regular contributor to the board... Keep on doing!
AB