Two Questions on Classic Silver Commemorative Coins..

denali12

1. Have noticed many slabbed early Commemoratives are "cleaned" coins.. is this a real problem buying these coins in the "raw", that very likely if look good, they would be cleaned coins, of much less value?

2. Unlike many other Coins a lot of the issues do not really have a big swing in price from AU58-60 to MS 64.. as been researching finding a maybe 20-30% increase in price, unlike other issues where ist 200-300% different. What is the cause for this? many only have 25,000-40,000 total mintages, and just been surprised how price didn't vastly change as went higher in grade

Thanks for any input!

dpoole

At one time, lustrous white classic Commems were "in," such that likely a large number of them were dipped in acetone or something similar to clear them of any discoloration. This process, by the way, is generally tolerated and is not considered "cleaning," which uses harsher methods and leaves hairlines and loss of luster.

What happened, though, is that "toned" Commems became the "in," popular look, leaving the dipped coins less desirable by the market. So, yes, the white coins now command less of a premium (depending, of course, on the quality of the toning--another topic).

denali12

thanks for info:

And was talking about the slabbed "genuine cleaning", that pcgs will not give a price for,but obviously has some value. Are these the dipped acetone? or would those be the harsher methods? thanks!

dpoole

"Genuine cleaning" does, indeed, refer to the harsher cleaning. PCGS is certifying that the coin is a the real McCoy and not a fake, but someone has cleaned it with some abrasive solution, and that it has lost a great deal of its numismatic desirability to collectors.

dpoole

As for your second question: some issues and their dies were of less sharpness in their impressions than others, sometimes because of the complexity and detail of the designs. Alternatively, there were simply some Commemoratives that had higher mintages than others.

The result is that some issues have fewer specimens that were produced of better quality for technical grading. You can see in the PCGS population numbers how some issues have fewer survivors in higher grades than in others, and how those numbers correspond more or less with what the price guides say they are worth at those grade levels.

TomB

Regarding point two, the AU58-MS64 spread in value; the early commems were produced in relatively small numbers, but they had extremely high survivorship. Therefore, they were rather scarce to find to begin with, but those that were found were generally of very high quality. This would mean that you chance of finding an AU58 was pretty much the same as finding any other grade through MS64, for example, and that none of the grades were that rare. It also means that the broader market determined that a higher grade was where the scarcity of the issue began.

denali12

@TomB said:
Regarding point two, the AU58-MS64 spread in value; the early commems were produced in relatively small numbers, but they had extremely high survivorship. Therefore, they were rather scarce to find to begin with, but those that were found were generally of very high quality. This would mean that you chance of finding an AU58 was pretty much the same as finding any other grade through MS64, for example, and that none of the grades were that rare. It also means that the broader market determined that a higher grade was where the scarcity of the issue began.

thanks!.. that makes a lot more sense.

denali12

@dpoole said:
As for your second question: some issues and their dies were of less sharpness in their impressions than others, sometimes because of the complexity and detail of the designs. Alternatively, there were simply some Commemoratives that had higher mintages than others.

The result is that some issues have fewer specimens that were produced of better quality for technical grading. You can see in the PCGS population numbers how some issues have fewer survivors in higher grades than in others, and how those numbers correspond more or less with what the price guides say they are worth at those grade levels.

thanks.. that is a large part of what I find intriguing about this series.. Some real good backround stories on some issues, but much more important some really fantastic designs and very different ideas on coin design... you do not see elsewhere

shorecoll

On survivorship, some of the issues existed in original mint bag quantities until the 1980's (or later), so you have that weird deal where circulated were rarer than MS, sometimes much rarer (but nobody cares).

BillJones

Collectors carefully preserved these pieces in the 1930s when collecting commemorative coins was something akin to the tulip craze in Holland. Many issues like the Antietam, York and Spanish Trail are common in grades like MS-65, and the lower grade pieces are actually in short supply.

Some of these coins were dipped to remove tarnish because people found them ugly. I tend to agree with this sentiment. Some forms of tarnish is not attractive, and some it is destructive to the piece. There are a lot of commemorative coin collectors who like tab toning and the dark toning that resulted from some of the original packaging in which some pieces were stored, however.

Some collectors really big money for pieces that have unusually bright toning that they find colorful and attractive. Some of this toning is legitimate; some it is artificial.

denali12

@BillJones said:
Collectors carefully preserved these pieces in the 1930s when collecting commemorative coins was something akin to the tulip craze in Holland. Many issues like the Antietam, York and Spanish Trail are common in grades like MS-65, and the lower grade pieces are actually in short supply.

Some of these coins were dipped to remove tarnish because people found them ugly. I tend to agree with this sentiment. Some forms of tarnish is not attractive, and some it is destructive to the piece. There are a lot of commemorative coin collectors who like tab toning and the dark toning that resulted from some of the original packaging in which some pieces were stored, however.

Some collectors really big money for pieces that have unusually bright toning that they find colorful and attractive. Some of this toning is legitimate; some it is artificial.

How can an average collector tell or learn about if coins were treated?..Is this something you need to send to pcgs for? or are there ways for the average joe to learn?

TomB

@denali12 said:

@BillJones said:
Collectors carefully preserved these pieces in the 1930s when collecting commemorative coins was something akin to the tulip craze in Holland. Many issues like the Antietam, York and Spanish Trail are common in grades like MS-65, and the lower grade pieces are actually in short supply.

Some of these coins were dipped to remove tarnish because people found them ugly. I tend to agree with this sentiment. Some forms of tarnish is not attractive, and some it is destructive to the piece. There are a lot of commemorative coin collectors who like tab toning and the dark toning that resulted from some of the original packaging in which some pieces were stored, however.

Some collectors really big money for pieces that have unusually bright toning that they find colorful and attractive. Some of this toning is legitimate; some it is artificial.

How can an average collector tell or learn about if coins were treated?..Is this something you need to send to pcgs for? or are there ways for the average joe to learn?

In general, any bright white silver coin pushing 100-years old or older and that has no evidence of at least a light patina coating its surfaces can be thought to have been dipped white. Again, this is in general and there are exceptions to this such as Morgan dollars where large numbers were stored in Treasury bags and might not have toned. However, if you come across classic commems that are sparkling white with surfaces devoid of anything else then it is a good chance that the coin was dipped. PCGS and NGC don't care about this, and most collectors don't, either, as long as the coin wasn't dipped too long or too many times, which would result in a more dull, lifeless look.

denali12

thanks Tom B..

As said been looking at slabbed commemoratives..and also non slabbed commem's and sometimes see a really nice non slabbed Coin Auction of a type that interests me, but been afraid to bid because figured cleaned and no value.

CommemDude

Here is the type of coin that can bring the polarized parties together...never dipped, original "skin" of very light toning, and white enough for many to be considered a nearly-white coin. I would recommend you look for these types of coins and avoid the harshly dipped pieces that have the look of aluminum foil, but that is just my own preference as a toned-coin lover.

ricko

@denali12 .... Excellent inputs from the members above and your questions are also very good. These are points that are discussed here on the forum many times. As far as determining cleaned or AT coins... this will come with experience... go to shows and shops if you can.. join a club... join ANA and go to their seminars. We all had to learn and we all made mistakes along the way. Best of luck and continue to ask your questions.. Cheers, RickO