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Would you submit THIS Fugio cent for crosover to PCGS?
MusicAL
Posts: 107 ✭
Hello everyone, and thanks so much for your input.
I am considering the sale of my collection and I have a few pieces in ICG slabs that I am considering crossing over to PCGS slabs. The special promotion ends shortly. Anyway, in your opinion, would submitting this to PCGS be worthwhile for equal grade level (VF 20)? Does changing the slab have a chance of a better return if/when I sell (assuming it crosses over). Finally, in the categories for submission for crossover service, there are numerous Fugio Cent categories listed. I am not quite sure which one applies to this piece (Kessler 9-P).
If anyone could help me out a bit, I'd be most appreciative. MANY thanks. MusicAl
4
Comments
Getting it out of an ICG holder would definitely be a plus. I would do it.
Cheers
Bob
A PCGS holder would be nice but I can't see that coin crossing at VF20.
I'm not sure if the special is still on but if it doesn't cost it's no charge (again, assuming the special is still on)
_Edited -
Nevermind, I see you already are aware of the PCGS special. I'd say do it. All you'll pay is the cost of the shipping. You never know....
I would do it if the grade was the same.
YN Member of the ANA, ANS, NBS, EAC, C4, MCA, PNNA, CSNS, ILNA, TEC, and more!
Always buying numismatic literature and sample slabs.
I think that the technical grade is correct. The weakness at the top of the obverse and bottom of the reverse is due to the fact that the reverse die is broken all the way across from 8 k and 4 k. The die fell away with resulted in a defective metal flow in the weakly struck areas. The surfaces look to be smooth and brown for the most part which some of the usual planchet issues that affect these coins.
The questions are, will PCGS see it that way and will it matter to potential buyers who might not like the weak strike in any case. I don't know the die characteristics of Fugio Cent varieties. A person with more expertise than I have will have to advise you on that. If it's a rare variety when this type of strike is normal, AND you get the right bidders, the strike might not matter. If you are type collector, such as I, it will matter.
Nice old cent.... I have reservations about it crossing at grade.... good luck and let us know what happens.. Cheers, RickO
Regardless of grade, it would be more "valuable" in a PCGS slab.
IMO
I don't see ICG coins having any real standing in the market place other than being treated as raw coins, especially for a colonial. I don't see it being worth anything less than it currently is even if PCGS downgrades it. Cracking it out and risking not getting it back into anyone's graded holder would be the supreme risk. But crossing at any "assigned grade" if that can be done, seems fine with me. Many potential buyers including dealers would be scared away by the ICG holder unless sold for next lower grade. Some would just assume the coin has problems because it hasn't been crossed over. If there are still pockets of uninformed collectors out there who will pay PCGS VF money for an ICG VF Fugio, then find them....whether it's on Ebay, a local show, etc.
I wish people would look at the coin inside the holder. That doesn't say that you should treat the coin in the holder as a raw coin. You should treat like a raw coin. The issue with this piece is the uneven strike and resulting lack of detail. As I wrote earlier, I think that the technical grade is correct.
When I was dealer, I'd buy pieces in off brand holders if the price was right, and it wasn't always one grade down from the label. I once bought a Hard Times token in an off-brand holder that was graded correctly and cracked it out to sell raw. Why? I didn't want that holder in my showcase.
Greetings to all who kindly responded to my post, and thank you all. I have just packed up the Fugio, and will have it in the mail tomorrow. The 28th of February is the last day for the crossover promotion. I requested for it to crossover at "Any Grade" and requested variety attribution to appear on the slab. I know it's a Kessler 9-P but I thought it should appear on the new (hopefully) slab in case it is a scarcer variety. I have no idea. We'll see what happens. I also sent off my 1797 dollar 10x6 (I have attached photos) to this post and requested "Details" grading. I seem to remember that PCGS would "number grade" cleaned early U.S. dollars but don't know if mine applies or if it's even true. I hope "Details" grading was a wise choice. Gee...would PCGS give it a number grade if they didn't agree with the "details" grade from ANACS? If anyone would like to share their opinions on the dollar and how you think it will come back, I'd value your opinions. I WILL post back on both pieces when I get the coins back and thanks again.
My goal is eventual (possibly soon) sale of my type set. Kidney transplant (10 years ago) native kidneys removed 2 years ago, age 66 and my son is not a collector...I'm thinking the time may be right. I'm considering consignment to Heritage. (I worked for them remotely from 1999-2000 and was treated well and loved the work.) Maybe I'll post this selling idea for discussion on another topic. You all are a wonderful source of wisdom.
Anyway, thank you all again, VERY much!
MusicAl
I look at coins in other holders and find the experience fulfilling because you have to look at the raw coin more.
I would definitely consider crossing this coin but consider what grade you can get and if that meets your objectives.
I think that the 1797 dollar will come back, "Fine sharpness, cleaned." There are obvious cleaning spots on the reverse on and between the words "States of," cleaning around "Liberty" on the obverse and some rim issues. Those spots look to have been done with an abrasive and will not "fix themselves" with re-toning. If you bought this piece a decade or more ago, as it is marked, you should still make some money on it.
I crossed an ANACS VF-20 Fugiio to PCGS....crossed at F-15. I pretty much expected that, and wasn't disappointed. I'd say it's on a par with the coin you show here.
My best suggestion is to look at the CoinFacts photos of all coins in that grade range. You'll notice that there seems to be a LOT of variation in details and quality. Part of that may be die variety variation, as noted by Bill Jones. Part of it may be a lack of any universal published standards, (at least that I ever found).
Make an assessment of where your coin fits into the range of graded coins, and what's important to you. If the VF grade is important to you, protect yourself by requiring "cross at grade". If the service doing the grading is more important, just take your chance with "cross at any grade".
Added: I must say that I think your coin probably has better surfaces than mine... Assuming I got netted down for some slight pitting, you might well make VF with the coin as is. Like I said, take a look at the CoinFacts photos, and make your best estimate based on those.
Hello, BillJones, and Zoins. Thanks so much for your note. I have owned the piece maybe 17 years, purchased from Heritage in 1999 when I was working with them. It was already certified in the ANACS slab. I paid $850. Why do I buy slabs? To be honest, if I felt that if I had the skill, I would look for raw and then submit them. I was burned (badly) by a SEGS 1795 dollar which when resubmitted to PCGS was deemed to be counterfeit. LONG story and I wrote about it here years ago when I was more active on the board. I never replaced the coin though I did get some reimbursement. I just don't trust my skills enough and never wanted to take another risk after THAT experience.
As a collector, making money was a secondary consideration, but now with retirement, past health issues (I'm actually good now) and no heir for my collection, I'm in a different situation. It's a near-impossible decision for me as I have worked on my set for over 50 years on my collection on a school teacher's budget. Most pieces are now in PCGS and NGC slabs and if I can say, I bought many raw and submitted later. I did OK.
I'm rambling. Sorry. MusicAl
Hello, Guys.
Just a follow up. I sent in my 1797 10x6 dollar and Fugio to PCGS on February 27 to get the "potential special" on crossovers before it expired on the 28th. I'll be very happy to share the results will all you great guys out there when the coins return "home". (Photos are at beginning of this thread.)
Thanks to all for your input on this! VERY much appreciated.
MusicAL
Hello, everyone. I am writing first of all to everyone who was SO helpful in helping me make my decision on whether to cross over my 1797 10x 6 dollar (ANACS VF Details cleaned) and my Fugio cent (ICG VF 20) to PCGS. It took me a while, but I DID do it and the results were received on Monday and today of this week. I have attached photos (hopefully) and overall I am pleased with the results. Regarding the $, I KNEW it wasn't VF details, especially with the weakness of strike on the reverse and the cleaning was never in question. SO the grade I received from PCGS was not a surprise. In fact, I was relieved that it came back as "Genuine" in that my 1795 dollar (SEGS) came back from PCGS as a counterfeit some 5 or so years ago. THAT was a major blow!!
The Fugio cent brought a smile or 2 when they confirmed the coin WAS in fact a VF 20. What I was a bit disappointed in was that I believe I paid an extra $18 for the variety identification service and what I received was "Cinq 4". I was hoping for a variety number like K-9 or whatever (which I believe my coin was marked on the ICG). So I still can't "for sure" identify the variety. Aren't there numerous "cinq 4" varieties or am I confused??
Anyway, most sincere thanks to all who gave their opinions and guidance on my submitting the pieces. I'm pleased I took the plunge. Does anyone know a reference on Fugio cents by variety or can it be identified by my less than ideal photos?
OH boy...Photo Bucket has changed since I last used it so I have NO idea what photos (if any) I just posted. I'm SO sorry. If anything (or all) are missing, I'll try again.
MANY thanks! Best to ALL. Alan in MA
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Thanks for posting my images...though my photos are less than ideal to be sure. Anyway, I hope they are good enough to see the coins and the grades. The images that I posted back in February are at the top of this thread if anyone is interested in comparing the pre and post PCGS photos.
Alan