RD designated Large Cents.
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How have 160+ year old pure copper coins managed to stay Red??
Al H.
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Same way SOME copper is blue, purple, yellow etc.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
By not being exposed to air or chemicals. Some have sat undisturbed in desks or in time capsules - or even in kegs with others.
It is strange that some remain full red, but what a treat it is to see an original, full red copper coin from the 19th century.
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Before slabs, you could protect your coins/medals in shells as here
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Storage in the exact conditions conducive to preservation... Or they were lacquered
The faux red ones stay that way via dipping
and 1857 seems to be the most popular date to suffer this.
But like TDN said, lack of exposure to air. In the case of the Randall hoard cents, it was more accidental, where a whole keg was buried somewhere, then dug up many years later. When they surfaced, I guess those in the interior of the hoard were still original red, and the collectors of that day carefully stored some of these.
You'd be surprised how storage in a simple cardboard/cellophane 2x2 will keep most copper red for years, possibly decades. Rolls work even better except for possibly the end coins. In 1988 someone brought in a raw mini-hoard of about a dozen gem red 1854 large cents to a local shop. The coins had obviously been stored together. Red enough to get a gem 65/66 RD designation on the majority of them. I ended up with 3 of the 65 RD's though another dealer was there before me or I'd have bought them all.
Ah, that is a question. How were they stored to keep the surface pristine? It's a question I've ask myself over the years. How could I have stored coins from my youth so they would would be like they were originally? No slabs back then. No real plastics that didn't leak plasticizers (pvc), aluminum foil? Mason jar? Submerged in acetone, distilled water, honey? I have to stop thinking about it, ya know?
Many of the full "red" pieces are doctored so that explains all but a tiny percentage of the extant population. TDN explained the very few original full red pieces.
Somewhat to very faded mint red, I understand. But something that looks like it left the Mint last week? This was a lesson that I learned the hard way, after the coins started to turn.
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An easily removed lacquer is propably one if the best ways to preserve these, if preservation is the primary objective.
I believe a majority or red large cents have been doctored. For the rest, I'd believe TDN's statement.
So possibly kept in rolls in a mason jar filled with nitrogen might work as long as the rubber seal lasted. Some edge toning to be expected extending inward over the front and back surfaces. Without oxygen it could be minimal.
For me, seeing a full red large cent is pretty jarring. The collector experience says, they should be Brown! That's what they look like!
Kind of like seeing a blast white Bust Half. They just don't "look right" like that.
Not saying either CAN'T come naturally in that more "mint fresh" state. Just saying I automatically view them with a suspicious eye....rightly or wrongly.
This one was given as a birthday gift in 1807 (the year of the recipient's birth). It was kept in the family for over 100 years, and then was given to a devoted coin collector, who clearly took good care of it (as did others after him)!
I'd love to learn how exactly the family "kept" it, if it is known.
They exist. I have a 1795 S-76b in an MS-62 holder that has traces of red on it when you look at with a 10X glass.
It takes storage in a proper device plus some place other than Florida during the 19th century to end up with one.
Still after some not so nice experiences as dealer with them, I won't be buy them ever, both because of the price and their fragile nature.
I might add that I have owned R&B cents and white metal piece with "tin pest" on them, and since I've had them the problem as not advanced a bit. John Kraljevich told that was normal under proper storeage conditions.
for the Braided Hair Cents from 1839-1857, PCGS currently lists 730 with the "RD" designation, with 234 coins dated 1853(32%). the Randall Hoard didn't include coins from the later dates, but I believe there was another Keg of Cents found during the Bank Holiday during the depression. is that where the later dates may have come from???
The Randall hoard coins were dated 1816-1920.
The 1933 'Bank Holiday' hoards supposedly had large cents dated 1850-56.
1816-1820, that is....
This is as close as I have to an old red cent, and I know that this puppy is stable. It has been in some of the top collections for many years.
Really Beautiful pieces! Kind of "Gallery Mint" looking though..
Time will reveal a truly original red against a doctored one. Original red stays red, so a red coin in a 20-year old holder is pretty clear to be original.
About what % of red classic coins are real vs doctored?
@BillJones ... that 1820 cent is amazing..... as to the topic.... Yes, many have been doctored, however, as said above, proper storage will allow the red surface to endure. My coins have traveled with me as I relocated to many different geographical areas (Southeast, Southwest, Northwest, Northeast) and there is no tarnish on any of them beyond what was there at time of purchase (i.e. brown cents),..... Cheers, RickO
This the reason why the last old red copper coin I bought, an 1864 Two Cent Piece, was in a rattle holder.
OK Rick, you got me thinking on this one. Does this imply that a coin that has been dipped red, neutralized, and stored properly will still turn?
It might, but if it has been stable for 20 years, chances are it won't. This gets to a debate. Has it been "enhanced" or is it natural? If you can't tell and it's stable, it doesn't matter. The vast majority of "worked on" pieces are not stable, and the problem crops within a year or so.
If the coin doctors could perfect the "novo red" process, they would have done it. I think it is hit and miss with a lot more failures than successes.
One dealer, who has since passed on, worked on just about every old Lincoln cent (1930s and before) he offered. He advertised to buy R&B coins, but he never seemed to have them in his case. The trouble was dealers and collectors who had fine tuned, experienced eyes could spot those coins without having to bend over the case. The red color just wasn't right. This dealer must of done okay with his business model. He used it for years.
I have known guys like that....I might have known this fellow you are referencing.
Was his name used as a verb?
"Oh, yeah, but that coin has been (insert name here) -ed?"
Wait, so this one is not NT?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Yes. I think any artificially enhanced red coin will likely fade, or change in the the years after it was enhanced. It is also more susceptible to spotting. Keep in mind that a RB coin in a RD holder is not necessarily an enhanced coin. My observation is that most are just plain misgraded to begin with.
An original red coin will stay an original red coin unless acted upon by something to change the surface. A cleaning, a fingerprint, a sneeze or just talking over an exposed coin will cause spotting and/or cause it to lose its original surface.
Personally, I feel the services missed the boat. They should have had four designations: RD, RB, BR, and BN
I've seen too much of a range inside of RB for it to make sense as is
maybe less is more and there should be only two designations, RD and BN. that might make it easier for a buyer who needs to haggle with a dealer about the color. is it red or not??
I don't think they should have ever started copper color designation.
Any particular reason why they felt obligated to?
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Color has a big impact on what they are worth.
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That's what I always thought was the most common way for old time collectors.
One of my customers owns the 1793 Wreath Cent PCGS Specimen 68RD. We sent this (along with some other coins) to CAC a couple of years ago, and JA's comments were, "Wow, this coin shouldn't exist!" It was from Ted N's incredible large cents dispersed by Jay Parrino in the early 1990's. I'd love to know how it was stored over the last 224 years!
Me too! All these near pristine coins could not have been lacquered back then. Then recently had the lacquer removed and submitted for grading.
Wouldn't RB and BR be the same?
RB would be more red than brown
BR would be more brown than red
Of course, red and brown don't exactly describe the purple and blue coins.
RB = more red than brown
BR = more brown than red
With the current system a 15% red coin is RB, as is a 85% red coin. At least the 15% coin could now be called BR.