How long do you feel you could survive as a numismatic authenticator?
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Skip the "grading" silliness --- how many feel able to authenticate even the most common US coins?
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I would be reasonably proficient but certainly not as good as the pros, so I wouldn't want that responsibility.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
In any professional numismatic position, I would be fired before lunch.
What kind of batting average will be required? Most Forum members could spot the mundane fakes, like ones with clumsy die work, or transfer die fakes. The problems are the really well-done ones (Hoffman fakes, for example). What about altered coins? I mean the clever alterations, and I have seen plenty of them during the last decade, that I did not notice until an experienced dealer gave me a mini-tutorial. How about AT coins? A lot of these things have gotten by professional graders.
We have all seen, and laughed at, many fakes made to circulate and alterations (e.g., glued-on mint marks that later fall off). Increasingly, however, ones designed to fool experienced collectors are appearing and some are getting by professional graders. How on earth could someone who is not already a professional grader/authenticator do a credible job? Maybe a specialist collector or dealer could do this, after 20 years of experience and study. But across the board?
MY ANSWER: NOT ME
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Until the unhappy first billionaire collector sued me and cost me big bucks to defend myself. (This type of thing has actually happened in the art world. I understand it is why it is not possible to have anything currently authenticated as a work by Jackson Pollock .)
The trick is knowing what problem-free, genuine coins look like. It's also good to be honest if you can't make an authentication with certainty.
I've been giving opinions and taking submissions at shows for another grading company for 3 years now. The worst part is having to tell people who spent a lot of money on a coin that it's unquestionably fake. Every show I see either added mintmarks (usually 1909-S VDB cents or 1916-D dimes- I've seen so many real ones that when an added one shows up it sticks out like a sore thumb), or coins that are completely bad. Sometimes, I can't say with certainty (I'm a US coin guy and sometimes foreign coins show up that I'm not familiar with) and let the owner of the coin know that- my rule is that if I'm not 100% sure either way, I tell the owner that and they appreciate my honesty. There's also a dealer (and friend) who sets up at most of the shows I do, and I will sometimes send people to him if I'm not 100% sure one way or the other or they want a second opinion. He was our finalizer and head numismatist for a long time and knows his stuff.
Some people simply don't understand the difference, even when I show them. I once had a guy come by with 2 1895-O Morgans. One was genuine and one was a Chinese eBay counterfeit. Even side-by-side, with me explaining the differences, he still couldn't tell the real one from the fake.
The flip side is, being a VAMmer and a variety guy, I sometimes get to tell people their coin is better than they think it is because it is a rare variety.
Overall, it's a pretty fun job and I get to see a lot of cool coins.
I wouldn't even be up to the task Roger. I'm finding out that the more I learn; the less I know. I'd spend all day on a few coins, and wouldn't be efficient enough to justify staying on anyone's payroll to be of any benefit; let alone effective enough to ensure every coin I look at is authentic. Especially with early coppers, early halves, and Trade dollars. Too many series to be an "expert."
I stay within my own boundaries when I buy raw coins. If I go beyond I look to the TPG's to tow the line. I did find an altered date about 5 years ago in family collection.
My production rate would be unacceptable.
I'd want unlimited time per coin to be 99.9% positive.
Answer to the question: About as long as it took to write this post.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I'd flunk in a few hours. never could do indian gold well.
In one series, within a limited grade range, I might make it a few hours.
I can't authenticate the coins I just got back on my PCGS submission yesterday. And they're common coins in holders!!
Not very long I'm afraid.
There's only 1 of us. There are 3-4 TPG authenticators who get a shot at it.....only needing one "nay" to flag the coin. Get 3-4 top forum collectors together....they'd do just fine.
Only the specialists in a series could authenticate with 100% accuracy. I don't believe any one person could authenticate all coin series.
I would be confident with authenticating draped bust, heraldic eagle half dollars. I was the first to identify the master dies and hubs used in the series, and was on-site to help authenticate and confirm die marriage discoveries 1807 T-10 and 1806 T-21. Six of us, including forum members Quarternut, Mozin, and co-discoverers Biddlesbank and colridge, met in Portland, Oregon on October 29, 2005 to authenticate 1806 T-21. The obverse die was very different from any known dies, so it was only a matter of determining if it was a genuine Mint coin.
There are many deceptive fakes, and I would not want to write on this thread all of the methods we used to determine authenticity, because a counterfeiter could easily search and read this thread.
I think I could pull it off.
Did it for 5-1/2 years and only quit because of office politics, but the counterfeiters have gotten better since then.
Lots of interesting perspectives.
I could not pass the interview/employment test...Sure, I can spot some fakes... most of the Chinese counterfeit Morgans... That being said, in no way am I of sufficient skill or knowledge to fill a professional position. Cheers, RickO
Not long at all.
Fan of the Oxford Comma
CCAC Representative of the General Public
2021 Young Numismatist of the Year
Well said. I'm with you on that note.
I don't think they'd like it if I took pics of each coin and waited for the results of GTG threads.
Assuming it doesn't involve personal financial liability - as long as it is challenging and educational.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
I could do Lincoln Matte Proofs and maybe Lincoln Wheat Cents. Beyond that, I'm total toast!
I can count change..... anything beyond that would be a crap shoot
A dealer I know recently bought a $2 1/2 Indian from Stacks as a good BU that came back fake, so coins can fool the best.
You have to have extensive knowledge of the processes used to create the dies and coins in a series, and extensive knowledge of the techniques of forgers. Would almost take up a full career. I feel confident authenticating trade dollars, maybe could extend further into the seated series, but not much else.
Skip Fazzari has a recent article: http://ht.ly/XOuM3091LAC
I made a few of those when I was a kid.
Judicious use of screwdriver and hammer.
No long because I'm too slow.
I remember being handed one of those 1944-D now "1914-D" Lincoln cents at a club table at a FUN show years ago. The guy said it was a gift from his late wife. I hated to tell him that it wasn't good.
It would be interesting to look at a lot of that "junk" just to get to know what more of it looks like these days. I have big "virtual collection" of it on my computer. (Lots of pictures)
A member of our coin club who is in his 90s ran a shop where he would affix "D"s to 1916 dimes selling them to unwary collectors. The worse that would happen is it would get returned to be recycled.
I think I would be competent enough to keep my job, but would be bored silly within a few days. New types and styles of counterfeits would be interesting to study, but the repetition would be numbing. Kudos to those who can do this professionally.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
At the ANA's advanced grading class in Colorado Springs many years ago ( I wasn't in the class), the instructors had a bunch of fakes placed in TPG holders with grades and distributed them for grading. I heard that the class did not do well. That was a little bit mean; then again, it was an advanced class and I bet everyone learned a lot. One year, in the authentication class, when I did attend, the instructors distributed a full set of $2-1/2 Indians in a Capitol Plastic Holder and asked us to identify the fakes. I deemed 2 authentic. As it turned out, they were all fake. That is the sort of fun stuff that you get to do at the ANA's coin classes.
That said, I just don't see enough coins these days so I suspect my performance would be mediocre, or worse today. As others have said, to be good at authentication, you must see lots of coins. You need other skills as well, but you must see a lot of coins and to do that, in general, you need to be a full-time dealer or grader.
Tom
I would survive fine as long as the boss made me the 1944-D penny altered to 1914-D specialist.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.---Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States of America, 1801-1809. Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence.
I am not sure how long I would last... by the way, what is wrong with that 1914 wheat penny?
The 1944-D Wheat Cent had part of the digit "4" removed to mimic a "1." Under magnification you can see where the "4" was shaved. Also, if you compare an authentic 1914- D cent to this altered 1944-D you will notice a significant gap between the "9" and "1" versus a genuine 1914-D that have those two digits closer.
I survived so far but it's killing me.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"by the way, what is wrong with that 1914 wheat penny?"
The Lincoln Memorial reverse might also be a clue.....
I guess I would try it and not quit.............................I would wait until they fired me.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
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i got a restraining order not to come back.
Probably as long as Chaplin in his efforts to service the huge machine in Modern Times (1936)
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I thought that sounded less obvious that Lucy and Ethel at the chocolate production line
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Roger, this has a Wheat reverse, I guess I missed the humor? Type slowly please
I'm certain I could last three days, provided I started on Saturday morning of a holiday weekend.