Grading Really .. I smell a fish...
HiBucky
Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
i sent 7 coins in to be graded. all in the $1000 - 9k range. I would expect the graders to grade the coins based on the condition only. The graders, consider a lot more then just the grade of the coin... Why are they harder on high priced coins with major dollar value leaps from, lets say MS-64 to MS 65 ?. Really! should they be concerned or even consider the price of the coin when grading the coin. ... Guys I would like to say .. that is BS . They need to just grade the coin.... That is what they get paid for .... They wimp out with MS-64 + .. Come on graders do your job. I can show you 10 MS-65 1881 Silver Dollars that look like crap compared to MS-64+ coins that are just about flawless but they (Graders) have no balls to make it a MS-65 because it takes a $2400 coin and turns it into a $8000.00 coin. I wish they would just do their job instead of worrying about the dollar value jump. I Know you guys have seen a lot of lower priced coins graded MS-65 that are really marginal at best. but get a super coin, the graders just can't grade what they see instead they hold back and wimp it out to a MS-64+... Please !
Comments
You must be thinking of another date since 1881 Morgan 64+ is a $150 coin and the 65 is a $500 coin or so, in this market.
Just submit again.....sure worth the odds with that kind of value leap.
bob:)
Interesting accusations. I'm truthfully not trying to be a smart ....... donkey, but do you have any evidence that they were concerned about value as they evaluated your coins? Any evidence that they were overly harsh? Can you post photos of the coins in question? Did you have TrueViews done? We're the coins independently evaluated by an expert grader prior to submission?
You might very well have a valid point, but without any evidence to go on it just sounds like whining. The most likely explanation, in the absence of information to the contrary, is that your assesment of the coins was simply different than theirs. I've certainly felt that way before.
Many recent threads have focused on grade inflation...... sounds like you have the opposite view.
I assume he was talking about 81-S Morgans. The price no doubt comes into effect given the guarantee. An 80-O had better be all there to get a 65. Also, there are hundreds of thousands of common dates in that grade range so statistically, there are going to be many that are overgraded.
I was using those 1881 as an example of the 1892-O ..MS64 -- to MS-65 big price jump
81-S is Buttkiss. MS65 sells for $125. WHat 1881 Morgan in 65 is worth 9K?
I think the issue might be they are afraid of making a$2400 coin an $8000 coin, which down the road might go back to a $2400 coin.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
"but they (Graders) have no balls to make it a MS-65 because it takes a $2400 coin and turns it into a $8000.00 coin."
As I mentioned recently on another thread ... I've graded or upgraded many $2,500 or so coins recently into $10,000, $20,000 and even $30,000 coins for their owners (a number of which are board members). Trust me - the graders are doing their job and doing it very nicely these days! I was very impressed, for example, when I recently submitted a Classic coin for a customer that went from an old ANACS-MS65 holder right into a PCGS-MS67 holder. Probably increased the coin's value 10x. That's the way to do it and man was the customer impressed as well.
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
I assume he was saying that a cheap, common 65 is often less nice than an expensive, rare 64+. Anyway, the OP responded and his clarification makes no sense to me either. An 81-O is a big jump but it's only $1200 in 65. Coincidentally, I have an 81-O in 64+ DMPL that would be a 65 if it were a common date, but alas, it is not a $17K coin.
I wonder who graded the 65 coin your comparing it with? I guess some graders have broke the "Grow Some Balls" barrier
Just saying.
+1
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
If it's the 1892-0 the OP is talking about then strike and luster are critical, not marks. Show me any really clean MS64 or 64+ 1892-0 Morgan that might "look like" a MS65 at first glance..... and I'll wager 90-98% of the time the coin has a flattish strike and/or muted luster that removes it from the $8,000 MS65 consideration. Do you want to pay $8,000 for a coin that grades MS64.99 or MS65.00? I wouldn't want to....unless it was a generic 1881-s where no one cares since those trade sight-unseen in quantities. How about an 1888-O? That coin is $1550 MS64, $4000 MS64+, and $21,000 in MS65. You can bet the coin should walk and talk if it gets a 65 grade. Let's say an MS64.9 is worth $6000-$10,000...the MS65.0 is $21,000. Would that make any sense at all? It wouldn't to me. With those kinds of spreads you just shouldn't grade 'em like a MS65 1886.
Fwiw, I also happen to agree with the OP that with many of the MS64 to MS65 better date Morgans showing huge price jumps, they really do have to be pretty solid for the grade to make MS65....otherwise they do tend to get a 64 or 64+. It's much more likely for a MS64.9 1881-s or 1881 to leak into a MS65 holder....and probably most of the time too. That might almost never happen for an 1892-0 where "pristine" and blasty coins with MS65/66 surfaces are fairly available....almost always with weak strikes, resulting in a 64+ grade.
Fwiw, I also disagree with the OP that the TPG's are only there to decide the grade. Nope. They are their to assign the grade that matches the market value the best. If they think the 92-0 is not an $8,000 coin, it doesn't get the gem grade, period. In essence, they are market pricing evaluators more than they are graders....at least at these lofty levels of pricing/appraisal. They are free to "grade" MS65 1881-s Morgans without such influences...other than on DMPL's.
This is great - now we have a service that works the grading services!
Peter, Paul & Mary asked the right question "when will it ever end?"
That's inevitable if everything upgrades.
I wonder why virtually nothing ever is submitted for reconsideration and downgrades -
What service? Do you mean that other expert dealers cannot be allowed to disagree with the TPG assigned grade? What if it took 20 submissions for a coin to go from MS67 to MS68 and a triple in price? I would seriously disagree with a 1/20 event being the accurate "grade" of the coin. The grading services have been consistently questioned since they first opened up in 1986. They grade coins accurately about 65-75% of the time. That leaves room for error...and resubmissions and regrades. Sorry if it's not perfect. Never has been...and likely never will be. Wondercoin is probably on par or better than the TPG graders on modern coins. Heck, his entire family might be better. The solution? Put Wondercoin into the grading room on a high 6 or even 7 figure salary.....
CAC has been around for 9 years too. They too, "work" the grading services in their own way. If Peter, Paul, and Mary were properly trained on grading coins back in the day, they too would have questioned some graded coins. If you've never questioned a TPG graded coin, you need to reassess what you're doing.
Reflecting on the last few threads regarding grading and graders... makes me happy I am not in the coin business. I am just a collector and really enjoy the coins I buy. That being said, if I were to decide to sell my coins, I would definitely enlist Wondercoin.....That decision based on many years here on the forum, not the last few threads.
Cheers, RickO
The "buy-back guarantee" is the killer here. Unless it's an absolute, no questions asked, lock grade +, they err on the side of caution when the upside is considerable.
Just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers
Bob
The "buy-back guarantee" is the killer here. Unless it's an absolute, no questions asked, lock grade +, they err on the side of caution when the upside is considerable.
Just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers
Bob
i think that the grading services do get a little gun shy about giving out the extra point when it increases the value by thousands of dollars. I heard this from dealers who knew how to grade more than 20 years ago. That's why some rare date coins get submitted time after time therefore inflating the numbers in the population reports.
When I was dealer I saw this with Morgan Dollars. The grades on the common dates were less exacting, sometimes a lot less exacting and conservative than they were on the really good dates. I handled an 1879-CC dollar a couple of times that was graded MS-63. If it had been a common date, I'm sure it would been MS-64. This is part of what the crack-out game is about.
B-b-but that could create TAX liability for the grading companies. LOLOLOLOL!
And you can add "market conditions"
I can remember every time the economy tanked, the bar for grades rose a bit.
Then subsided along with risk.
COINS are a hobby.
GRADING is a business (that also serves as a manipulating tool)
I use stella valuations as an example of first spouse valuations.
works for me!