Where do naturally toned coins come from?
Onedollarnohollar
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Has anyone ever done a study on where naturally toned coins come from? Do they come from mostly northern states, mid-west, or east coast collections due to huge temperature fluctuations with their damp conditions, etc. or are they equally found out in the drier climes of the southwest and southern west coast?
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Albums.
It didn't seem to matter where in the country the PCI holdered coins were at. More a function of what was in the materials used to slab the coins.
I'm thinking maybe....
Nownthats some Great Toning
Naturally toned coins come from, well, nature.
They are a combination of oxidation and light which occur everywhere.
Tarnish is a thin layer of corrosion that forms over metals from a chemical reaction with the oxygen in the air.
Silver is a bit different since it needs hydrogen sulfide to tarnish - however oxygen alone would do it over time.
Once the layer of tarnish has formed, then light reflects off it at different wavelengths which our eyes see as different colors. With the devices on coins, tarnish doesn't form as single consistent layer and different thicknesses occur, giving different colors.
Regions of the country where humidity is high ...
Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]
those gotta be AT, the 2 on the right say 100% white....
This is a very cool question! I don't have an answer, sorry, but I've always wanted to do a 5 or 10 coin toned year collection, but wondered if I had to hermetically seal them or something to keep them from shifting tones. So, great question!
~Matthew
CoinRollin.blogspot.Com
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I live in the desert southwest and have never had a coin tone. NEVER. Too dry is my thought. We certainly have the heat but do not have the moisture.
My colection of IHC proofs are mostly nicely to spectacularly toned. But all of my proof sets that date back to the 1960's have not toned at all. But they were always stored in safe deposit boxes in very dry climates. I once offered to a delaer in Florida that he store my coins for me , with maybe a pihole in the mint cellophane. But I am sure that only my grandchildren might see development of the toning, when they are very old.
OINK
I have bought a number from southern Florida, but they can be found in any geographical area. In other words, there is no geographical correlation to toning (IMHO).
Many I have found, toned inside original mint-issued Cello Packs -- In this case for this monster 1964 Proof Kennedy, it was stored in a cardboard box packed in newspapers in an unconditioned garage for 20 years. Maybe there is a very slight leakage of air in those old cello packs (not sure) over very long periods of time under the right conditions. Perhaps the warm temps and humidity made a slight difference (hard to know!). Note that all 5 coins in this cello pack "turned" a bit, but only the Kennedy took on that "oh wow" look.
This one I bought from a dealer in Key Largo inside a pristine cello pack. I bought it for $100, which was pricey at the time, but I wanted that Kennedy!
Graded with PCGS at PR67
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Now this one I bought at my local Bricks and Mortar coin dealer in 2011. I asked them if I could look through their 1961 Proof sets and found this. He sold the set to me for $25 as I recall. Def not cooked as the dealer didnt think anything of this set and did not charge a premium.
Graded first time through PCGS at PR67RB
Note that the early 1960's (1961-1964) were especially great years for Cello Pack toning in Proofs. I have heard some rumors on this board that the USMint was experimenting with coin dips that they thought would preserve the coins mirror surfaces and prevent future spotting. What that dip seemed to do in some cases was cause Monster toning inside the cello pack after about 40+ years. Monster toning in 1961 Proof Lincolns is so common (relatively speaking) that it produced a PCGS Population "jump" in BN Proof Lincolns that year. I called this jump "The 1961 Anomaly" - however you can pretty easily find monster proofs for other denominations (esp Jeffersons, which have a high copper content) in those early 1960's years as well -- smaller spikes in toned pops can be seen in the silver coins but because PCGS doesnt track toning in anything above the 1c denomination (with their BN and RB color class) it's hard to interpret anything from the PCGS POPs.
This monster 1962 Proof Lincoln I got from a pristine Cello Pack Proof set that I bought on eBay for $19. Dirt cheap considering the Silver Content. It was interesting that the other 4 coins in this proof set looked "typical" (untoned) ... only the Lincoln had taken on a wild color. I dont think the seller thought anything of this set as it was sold under market price.
It graded PR68BN first time though -- becoming the 1st known PCGS PR68BN Lincoln Cent ever graded for any year (none higher).
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
From what I understand, coins that are left undisturbed for extended periods of time take on the environment in which they are kept. Coin albums, window ledges, dresser drawers, taco bell napkins, etc... When I was in Desert Storm, I placed a few coins on top of our pot bellied stove in our tent and there were some very pretty colors that were achieved, that is considered artificial toning, but they were real pretty. I wish that I still had them.
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Some toners I have came from old Albums. Albums that seem to produce especially great monster toning are those old Wayte Raymond National Coin Albums, which were made from the early 1930's through the early 1960's. I believe they used paper with high sulfur content -- which produced the beautiful toning over time
These coins came from such an album. They were held by a long time collector of Lincolns who had this album for over 60 years -- then a few years ago the album was sold to a dealer in New Hampshire. Some of the better raw coins were sold on eBay by the dealer for between $48 and $65 each. Here are a few of those old Album toned beauties.
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
The real ones come from the mint.
Morgan Dollars are probably the most famous for monster toning. That was caused by banks storing tons of Morgans in sulfur laden canvas bags in vaults for 80 years. here is a photo of over 3000 such bags (photo taken in 1963)
This produced some really great toning! I have a few nice morgan toners (however I am not positive this coin came from a canvas bag, this might have been album toned).
Some Morgan toners you can see the canvas bag pattern in the toning. This is called "Textile Toning" I believe.
A good example here (not my coin!) :
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Matte Proof Lincolns are another well toned "toned" subgroup. The toning in MPLs was caused by the USMint wrapping the coins in sulfur laden tissue paper when there were mailed out in the early 1900's. If the recipient kept them in the original packaging, monster colors could result.
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I have lived in Maine, Mass., RI, NYS, Fl, TX, AZ, CA, IL, WA.......I have not noticed any difference in tarnish due to geographical location. Now, storage methods are different... Albums, coin cabinets, safes, raw, slabbed... these have direct effects...Tarnish is environmental damage and when you place the coins in proximity to chemically active substances, they will tarnish. Cheers, RickO
Fun thread.
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I am glad you brought up the "intentional" word. Does PCGS still use that in their separation of NT vs AT. That always seemed odd to me as how can you possibly read the mind of an old owner. I think a better way might be by speed instead of intention. Put a coin under a blow torch or in the oven and it will sometimes tone, but it happens fast (in minutes). Put the coin in an old album or envelope for 10-30+ years and colors might happen. I would call these slow processes that take years (at least a few years in some cases, but better if over 10) ... natural ... and the stuff that takes minutes or days ... artificial. However it's not an exact science. And we all struggle with this separation at times. Finding clues to help give some insight into speed of toning is another long and complex conversation!
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Perhaps fossil fuels used in cold climates.
I'm thinking of coal heated homes in particular.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
One interesting method for helping to determine NT vs AT is to use well known and researched color progression charts. This is the famous Sunnywood Color Progression Chart that was developed using Morgan Dollars as a test bed. I was interested to see that same progression work on this naturally toned lincoln. I wasnt expecting that since I figured copper and silver might tone totally differently. In this case, it was good to see newer, younger color in the center and older colors near the rim (where the toning process started). This is exactly how you'd expect the progression to go with album toning.
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Leather pouches??
I think I read they sprinkled sulfur powder on them and around the area to keep rats from eating through the canvas.
cool info, i didnt know that
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Volcanic Eruptions?
Metal boxes in the cornerstone of a church
Leather Pouches and wood boxes?
Latin American Collection
Coins buried in cans - Saddle Ridge.
What state has the most Taco Bell locations?
love that 92-CC!
Latin American Collection
Strange that you can see the 92-CC and I can't!
Now can you see it?
I have the same problem sometimes recently
Latin American Collection
I had pictures not load on my IPad. Hit refresh a few times and they usually show up.
Mine are fine on all but my mac...
Latin American Collection
Can't see it on Safari but just tried Google Chrome and can - guess I'll switch.
Thanks for the help!
Most toning is unnatural, in that it was applied in an accelerated process by means other than just the air. Wrappers, holders, bags, and albums of all sorts are accelerants, and really not natural. Maybe market acceptable, but not natural. The lousy and unexciting brown/silvery toning you see on most untouched coins from the 19th century are natural. Look at the mottled silver/brown/black toning on so many 1916-1917 US silver coins. Not pretty. But, original. Same comment for orig unc 1921 Peace Dollars. And because they aren't exciting or have neutral to negative eye appeal, they often get dipped out to start a 2nd round of toning, usually highly accelerated, in order to form more vibrant colors.
US Mint issuing 19th to early 20th century proof sets in sulfur-laden paper wrappers? Accelerated, unnatural toning....but, perfectly market acceptable, especially when pretty. The lightly cleaned, Colonel Green coins ending up in Newman that often brought spectacular prices in 2015....no comment. And not natural. Most collectors of today are not fond of truly natural toning that was not accelerated.
roadrunner:
Appreciate the comments. I like the Garrett and Eliasberg style toning - natural??
Yeah Lakesammman, I like that too. Looks like it just hung around in the air forever. That's about as vibrant as all-air toning can usually get. Some pretty blues. Then the mottled, splotchy silver and browns intermixed. What an original gem 19th century silver coin should look like. Do you think John Clapp was the source? Was he buying foreign mint coins at that time too?
Roadrunner is absolutely correct... the old ugly coins are usually naturally tarnished... the colorful coins have been accelerated... The term 'artificial' is accepted, though not accurate.....The rainbow colors most appreciated are most often accelerated... and usually intentional...the market is flooded with this type of material..... and many collectors pride themselves on the false notion that they can determine - unfailingly - the difference. Cheers, RickO