Can a holder actually hurt the value of a coin?
coin22lover
Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭
To be more specific, take a look at this example. Here we have an "every day" run of the mill collector grade Bust Quarter. It has some light, toned over, shallow scratches that are pretty much invisible to the naked eye at first glance. This is also a coin that a seller may be tempted to call an XF40 if raw, even though it's pretty much VF35 on the details.. Now, I have to wonder, in this case, and others like it (never mind the company...could be PCGS just as easily), but will the details holder actually detract from the coin more than the relatively minor issues?
Please discuss.
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In this case, probably yes.
Only to the extent that a less astute buyer fails to note the problems.
If the goal is to sell a scratched coin without the buyer noticing, then yes, selling it in a holder labelling the scratches will hurt the value.
Absolutely. I own a 1921 Peace dollar with a truly stellar strike that came back BU Details, cleaned. It has nice patina, great luster, and outstanding detail. It has the look of an MS66 ($5k coin), but would trade in that holder for maybe $300-400. Raw, it would almost certainly bring more. For the record, I think the coin has an outside shot of being holdered someday, maybe as a market-graded MS64+/MS65.
Are you telling us that what appear to be two deep gouges beneath UNUM are either not there or are really "light, toned over, shallow scratches that are pretty much invisible to the naked eye at first glance"?
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Not really. Those are more trivial than they look, and are reflecting a lot of light. The obverse marks are what caused the holder to be details.
Hard to miss the scratches across the fase and to the left of the chin, once one starts seriously examine the coin.
Appears to be scratched on both sides with relatively contemporary "test marks," in which someone made sure the coin wasn't just plated with silver but was solid silver by making short "skiitches" with a knife or nail before accepting it for payment. Coin is damaged to be sure, but collectible and actually, IMO, can be a pretty good value at a fair "net" grade.
The holder doesn't really matter much either way in making my purchase decisions, from my view it's neutral, what's important to me is the price, I've bought a few such coins and usually crack them out and enjoy their details raw, for some like me, a coin like this is much more enjoyable than a "problem free" Good or VG, or even a Fine-12, but I'd probably prefer a nice original looking F15 to this coin.
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I take it those two blazing streaks behind the eagle's head aren't fresh metal?
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A few years ago I was checking Heritage auction listings and saw a fantastic 1794 Large Cent. Nice VF and from the images had that great, original crusty look and not processed and shined-up like most early coppers. Only problem- a moderate planchet void as-made on the central reverse which resulted in a Details grade. Pretty sure it was PCGS. I believe it sold in the $800 dollar range which was an absolute steal. I was shocked and wished I would have bid. I think the details grade definitely hurt the price.
It would be interesting to compare the different compositions and thickness of the holders plastic to see how they inhibit the viewing of the coin.
Take some empty shells and put them over a raw coin and observe how the coin looks under each.
Yes. I'll be honest, when i see genuine I am not as interested in it.
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Yes, on ebay details graded coins get hammered especially in true auctions. I should take them out when they don't grade, but I just feel I should accurately portray them for what they are, but always get killed in the process.
One of my vest pocket dealers buys them from me all the time on ebay, cracks em out and sells them and triples his money many times.
Certainly the holder/cert can hurt.
Example:
Old ANACS cert XF45 on an early 1800's Capped Bust $5 gold - listed with planchet flow. The coin was probably sold for peanuts approx 10 yrs ago because of this.
Regraded at PCGS as MS62. The coin was wonderful imo even with the "minor" cheek flaw. Wonderful luster and blast. I'd have paid strong 62 money if the dealer was willing to sell it. ANACS just blew it on this one net grading it down from 63 to 45.
Yuck
Fwiw, I passed on a rare 1872-s seated quarter in a PCGS VF25 holder back around 2006-2007. I probably shouldn't have as the coin was offered to me for $2800 and a couple years later it brought around $4,400 at auction. I passed on the coin because it had very darkened surfaces, especially on the reverse. It could have been in a fire at one time or buried. It looked possibly ED. It also had an obvious deep but old scratch across half or more of the eagle. I was afraid I'd get caught with that coin if standards ever tightened up. But, I hated to pass up such a rare coin especially at a good price. In overall quality and look, it was somewhat similar to the OP's bust quarter. Fresh and bright scratches are hard to pass off though.
In this case, the 1872-s VF25 holder gave the coin much more value than it if were raw. Most examples of this date are cleaned or damaged. If the OP was showing us a 1796 or 1804 quarter, the damage on it would be a lot more "acceptable." The reverse gouges are why the 1828 is "details" only. The obverse is essentially market acceptable.
My No Motto Seated Dollar was tagged AU Details "Questionable Color" which would give any future buyer pause if it remained in the holder...outside the holder it looks great!
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That coin would be worth more outside that holder.
Yes. Crack that slab and send that coin in for regrading! Seems like good sense to buy up old slabs at a garage or estate sale and "flip" them for a chance at a higher grade. Why not? Some people want to buy the label, others the coin. There's room for everyone at the table.
~Matthew
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I prefer circulated coins, too. They always have a story to tell. But, the show pieces are great at parties where you can easily seduce a newbie into the hobby with the beauty of a high strike.
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Usually, a coin in a 'details' holder may be an opportunity to get an otherwise nice coin for a lower price....so for collectors, it can be good. For sellers, not so good. Cheers, RickO
the relatively minor issues
to characterize what is going on with the OP coin as "minor" is to be very generous, but all that aside I believe that when a potential buyer sees the "Details" holder they typically ignore the coin. if they were to see the same coin raw I believe they would at least examine it.
in either case it is saleable at the right price, I just think the advantage is to the seller when raw and the buyer when encapsulated.
Price fixes everything but when I see 'details', I stop and wonder what else am I missing here. JMO
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Well stated, keets, and I concur from personal experience:
in either case it is saleable at the right price, I just think the advantage is to the seller when raw and the buyer when encapsulated.
My XF45 1858-s 25c was tagged as "cleaned." I thought it was good enough to grade. I left in in the XF details holder. I didn't think it would bring even a $1 more if cracked out and offered up raw. Down the road, one of the players will get than into a graded holder. No regrets. Paid $1050 and sold it a couple years later for $2,000. In a graded holder it would have fetched around $3,000.
Thanks for that assurance. I had a rather valuable coin that came back with a derogatory comment added to the label that I and the auction house did not agree with and which had not been stated on the holder in which it was submitted. In the end it went to auction raw with a safety net reserve that was exceeded. Obviously will never know for sure if it would have even done better kept holdered with the gratuitous comment.
Dealers will make money with money, it's always buyer beware!!!
It is what it is. Plastic doesn't help, when the truth hurts.
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I would say yes and look at reasonably priced coins in ANACS, ICG, PCI, and ACG to see how good they are. Sometimes the coin is even better than what they say and if priced a grade or two lower than PCGS, there is good value.
"Can a holder actually hurt the value of a coin?"
I paid appx $62k for an NGC MS66 1859 $1 , downgraded it to PCGS MS65 and sold it for a profit. So the answer is yes if the coin doesn't match the quality of the coin.
It would be unethical to crack a coin outta the problem holder and sell it raw knowing all the details. But you didn't say you were going to do that. But with that said looking back to the days when I collected coins with my dad when I was a kid, back in the 50's. NONE of the coins were graded but from the dealer the grades went from XF to uncirculated with no such thing as AU on a stapled coin flip, White was right too. You could buy a coin cleaning kit at the coin shop to take home with ya. Now you'll destroy your coin if ya do that. How times have changed.
To answer your question, in this case, yes it would sell for more $ without the holder.
Sometimes the truth hurts, but the follow on plastic still bails you out.
My former PCGS MS64 $10 Lib bought out of a major auction was cracked out by me looking for an upgrade. It was a coin without any real hits. I fully expected a MS65 or better on it. It was then reviewed as NGC BB no grade, PCGS BB no grade....altered surfaces on both. Very disappointing, especially when a number of top gold dealers couldn't tell me exactly what was wrong with it. So logically, I gave up on it. The truth sure hurt. I was resigned to take the $500-$800 loss on it as it was unsaleable raw for anything but MS63 money. Shipped out to S/B auctions as a raw coin hoping some bidder would see what I did and pay a MS64+ price. S/B liked it as much as I first did. They sent it back to NGC.....NGC MS66. That probable loss turned into a $2500/100% profit selling for about 80% of PCGS MS66 money. This was a few years before CAC.
The truth can hurt....and plastic can most certainly nullify that. What was the real grade after 4 submissions of 64, BB, BB, 66? And again, no one I ever showed it to, including former PCGS gold coin graders, couldn't say what was the problem with it....other than it wouldn't grade the last 2 times in.