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1883 Proof Trade Dollar, PR-69!
Wabbit2313
Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
Do you think this coin deserves the lofty 69 grade?
8
Wabbit2313
Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
Wabbit2313
Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
Wabbit2313
Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
Wabbit2313
Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
Do you think this coin deserves the lofty 69 grade?
Comments
All I know is that coin will never be cracked out.
I wonder if that spot was visible and how/if it's changed since it was originally encapsulated.
The spot was always there and it was graded almost 20 years ago. And I guarantee you there are no hairlines in the fields - any that you see are certainly on the holder.
I would pay six figures for that coin spot and all - in fact, I recently offered such and was quickly shot down.
Those do appear to be holder scratches.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Beautiful coin. I would take the time and expense to get it in a new slab though. Would look pristine.
Looks like a monster to me, I'm guessing the pictures and old holder don't do it justice.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
If it was, you'd never see it in a 69 holder again.
Cheers
Bob
Have you seen it in hand? Do you believe it is worthy of the 69 grade? The pictures don't seem to indicate so but if you have seen it in hand and agree with the 69 assessment I will believe it is fairly graded.
Nice toning.
YN Member of the ANA, ANS, NBS, EAC, C4, MCA, PNNA, CSNS, ILNA, TEC, and more!
Always buying numismatic literature and sample slabs.
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That is the "official" PR-69 marker. If the coin does not have one, it's not a 69.
Looks nice aside from that spot.
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I this in dealer inventory collection or just a photo ?
It certainly would be interesting to see what it would come back as with a cross at any grade. I think the PCGSCoinfacts 3rd and 4th coins, in 67, blow this one out of the water.
This is the kind of coin where looking at, or depending on a label is self-defeating. The coin carries it's own credentials, and needs no "fluff" to interest the knowledgeable collector.
So what's the story / research / history on this coin?
Knoxville
I can not get past that spot.
Some of the Knoxville coins were very optimistically graded. I don't know if they got them like that or before they were graded. This spotted proof trade dollar can't be higher than P67 in my mind with a 3-d spot. Reminds me of my old 1866 NGC PF67 CAM seated half. That coin was nearly PF68 quality if not for a thick carbon spot in Liberty's lap. I think the coin is currently in a PCGS 66+ CAC holder. The coin was nice enough, though I had no illusions that it was a solidly graded 67 coin when I bought it in 2002. It would have cost thousands more had it been a solid 67. I figure such spots as typically a 1-1/2- 2 pt deduction.
Speaking of Knoxville, NGC should have been ashamed of themselves assigning the 1839 no drapery half as MS67, finest graded by 2 pts at the time. I saw that coin at the 2003 ANA and it had no more mint luster than my MS63. I graded Knoxville as a MS64 due to heavy knee rub and missing field luster. The coin was not PL. I guess NGC loved the color. When that coin was auctioned in 2011 as part of the Joe Thomas collection, it fetched MS65 money ($172K) while holdered as MS67...and in 2013 it fetched weak MS65 money ($138K). It brought about 40% of the money that the consignor paid for it during the 2006-2008 market peak. CAC hasn't stickered a single MS65 no drapery half, let alone a 66 or 67.
I'm not surprised this Knoxville trade dollar is still graded NGC PF69. These coins are leftovers from the era when assigning the highest imaginable grades got you the TPG more business while owners always made money on the upgrades. That's not true today....and none of it was mentioned in Salzburg's memo. In a sense Knoxville was the market grading peak when it came to ultra high grades on type coin grade rarities.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-half-dollars/1839-50c-no-drapery-ms67-ngc/a/1151-5558.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0
@roadrunner ,thanks for the history lesson. Great info and opinions.
I also like what @RogerB says about the label.
The obv is, of course, stunning but like many others......that spot though.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
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Another one of those permanently entombed in it's present holder or it will lose a grade or three. Overgraded in my opinion. That reverse spot is an eye sore.
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"Appearance review", apparently they are running 12 days now? I sent them two coins recently that were darkly toned to have them check out they had certified. I heard back in days, no dice on any freebies... One way to increase your chances of them owning up to an overgrade is having a well known PNG dealer write that in his professional opinion the coin is "xx**", or several professional opinions. If they say no dice, go over their heads.
Knoxville coins in general are fabulous.
One must remember the "Collection" was sold in parts over a long period of time. For example, the Knoxville Collection Contursi bought in NGC holders and submitted to PCGS, was missing all of the trimes.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
If that spot was on Liberty's face it would need a biopsy and be surgically removed.
Beyond that, is it just me, the lighting or toning but is her left thigh and top of left hand look a bit flat or rubbed?
When you get into this tier of money and Proof 69 no less....it better be right.
"Just because you were born on 3rd base doesn't mean you hit a triple"
Did you see the guys letter the other day? No way he is taking a 100K or more bath on a coin like this. Sending in other opinions will do nothing when someone is arrogant.
Is that a hit after the S in GRAINS?
The way that could be done is as I outlined, PNG leaders write professional grade opinions saying due to the defect the coin is no better than xx** based on these 20 examples, that there is a long precedent of limiting grade for defects, marks, problems like this. And based on our assessment it is worth $xxxxxx, here is the price history of this coin and similar ones and if our assessment is rejected we will do x, y and z. Plus the public will know that they didn't live up to their contracts. Should get attention of their lawyers, no company needs bad publicity.
Similar ones?
High end rarities with similar defects, aren't there examples of others that aren't graded over a certain level?
Here's the sole PCGS T$1 in 69 (69CAM in fact):
http://www.pcgs.com/cert/30132590
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
...studying his style...I bet if he bought it he would have it downgraded at PCGS and TrueViewed and CAC'ed...that's all...True collector and I think that's Rad
Wowser. That's insane. And no BIG spot either!
Even if that NGC PF69 was downgraded to a PCGS 68 ....it would still have that spot. CAC doesn't give out 68's very easily. They've only given out 4. And each of those was a CAM/DCAM. That suggests to me that JA wants some extra value when applying that sticker. Not likely that NGC coin would ever get a CAM while toned.
That 1878 makes the 83 look like a clunker! Holy Cow! Almost transparent!!
That 1878 HAS to be an artists rendition. Wow!
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Now that is a coin!
The coin posted by the OP is a Monster. If you can find a coin this nice without a spot (good luck with that), buy it. But this one is taking care of itself pretty darn well spot and all. I would love to see it in hand.
The 1883 is Beautiful, even with the spot on the reverse. But that 1878 is killer!
Interesting that they both have similar pastel toning.
The 1878 is nice, I've held it in hand
That 1878 is amazingly incredible.
The 1883, while beautiful, graded 70 (perfect) before the spot then? The spot was the reason it graded 69? Yeah, thats a tomb holder no doubt.
67 would be about right. It's a nasty spot, large and near the center.
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Both coins are amazing... and I would say the 1883 with a TDN endorsement (such as rendered) must be a really nice coin..... True, the spot is distracting, and I wonder if it is really a planchet flaw, rather than something induced post mint. Cheers, RickO
Acetone would have likely fixed that.
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I believe that is from the old mint packaging for proofs, tissue paper if I remember correctly. Many old proofs have that light pastel toning...
question retracted.
Twenty years ago, I read Scott Travers' book about coin grading. I forget when it was written, but he said that the highest grade one should expect on a 100 year old + coin was an MS 67.
Based on what I've seen, I think he's still correct. The few MS 68s and one MS 69 (that one a PF, but not the one in this image) that I have seen in hand imo were all overgraded.
And I have not been impressed with the few MS 67 business strike Liberty Nickels I have seen, and this is a series I collect in MS 66.
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"Sou Mangueira......."
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