Sacagawea Mule Coin - Real error or fraud?
Jerry1
Posts: 8 ✭
I've got information to discuss about the history of the Sacagawea mule coin, and I've been looking for a forum to do so. Maybe this is it, but I've been disappointed before on this topic. I've presented this information to officers of the Dept. Of the Treasury and to the FBI with no resulting interest on their part.
The beginning of the story is this. I saw a sign stating "Estate Sale". Didn't know it at the time, but it was a sale of the property of the widow of Mr. Jay Johnson, deceased director of the U.S. Mint, appointed to that position by President Clinton. Mr. Johnson served as Director for only a year before being, in effect, fired. It was during his tenure as Director that the Golden Dollar (Sacagewea Dollar) was minted, and the Sacagewea error coin was produced. Now do this: do an internet search for the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress, Johnson, Jay W. You'll find the biography of Mr. Johnson, Representative from Wisconsin, listing his accomplishments until his death in 2009. No mention of what I would think would be the highlight of his life, an appointment by a sitting U.S. President to direct a critical part of our government.
Ok, maybe no one cares, so I'll give you a little more. What I purchased at the sale was a Johnny Cash songbook. I play guitar and this was a book of his songs with lyrics, chords, etc. Within the pages were addition items including a Time magazine with Johnny Cash on the cover (shortly after his death) and a mailing label in the name of Jay Johnson, and hand written lyrics written on the blank side of mint inventory paper. The lyrics were written to the tune of a popular Johnny Cash song. On the inside cover of the song book is an inscription "To Jay Johnson, Sincerely Johnny Cash"
The real intrigue of this story is in the hand written lyrics. Phrases such as "I know that error coins are hard to find. So I had some made up at that mint of mine. I sort of got into a little bind, But I still love that mule of mine." And, "We thought we'd sell more Gold Dollars that way. And after all - who'd blame old Jay."
Got anyone's interest? Just let me add that it took awhile for me to put this into context afterI first read it. I'm not a coin collector so I was confused. Mules, Johnny Cash? Ya, they go together I thought. But reference to "that mint of mine" didn't make sense until I looked up the definition of "mule", and then found out who Jay Johnson was. WOW!!!! This is big I thought, but here we are today over two years later and I'm still looking for anyone's interest. What about you? I'm getting old and don't want this to be buried with me. The world needs to know. Any comments or opinions on how or where to expose this information would be appreciated. Thank you
Comments
Sounds amazing. Is there any chance you could post a longer description of the coin?
Johnny wrote the lyrics you say? I think that there might be value to Cash fans but not to coin fans. Do you have a coin from the estate that is a mule? I did not read that you got one. If it's just Johnny's reference to a mint mule then without the coin to back it up it's just literary license. Sing what you want to sing about. Sounds like Johnny may have personally known Jay and just wrote the lyrics about his tenure at the Mint. Mules do exist and they are rare but fraud? Perhaps not. Mistake? Perhaps so.
bob:)
I'm in the "lets see some pictures" camp. You didn't find any coins in the lot did ya? So he wrote a song incriminating himself? Definitely interesting to say the least.
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I think he is implying that the Mint director actually wrote the song, I think anyways.
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The story is a little hard to follow, but the way I am reading it, the lyrics were probably written by Jay Johnson since they were on mint paper, and the part about Johnny Cash’s signature is a jump back to the previously mentioned songbook, hence the confusion.
So, if I understand it: Jay was a fan of Johnny Cash and he wrote his “confession” about the mules in the form of lyrics to a Cash tune. The part about the songbook and address label is a bit extraneous but serve to show that Jay liked Johnny’s music and that is why he confessed via alternate lyrics to a Cash song.
Some possibilities: the entire story could be fabricated (how about some photos…), or it could be a 100% legit “confession”, or it could have been written by Jay but meant as a joke after learning about the mules (was there some sort of in-house talent show at the Mint, or a roast for Jay when he left the Mint, etc.) More research is definitely in order. If the lyrics were handwritten by Jay that should be somewhat easy to prove.
BTW Jerry1, assuming this isn’t a hoax – you deserve a lot of credit for recognizing what that was and its potential impact to coin collectors. Most people probably would not have been as diligent as you in trying to track down the story and spreading the word to interested parties.
Perhaps you could post scans here of the two different writings.
You could get all your documentation together and contact a national news show, such as 60 Minutes or Dateline.
Where's the popcorn-eating emoji?
Yes, let's see photos of what you're mentioning.
I'm very very familiar with the Sac/Quarter Mules,
and what you've said is interesting. Verification needed.
We'd like to see the writings, etc, and maybe we can
come up with a scenario that fits along with what's known.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Everyone,
Read what JBK posted. He is correct in his interpretation. Maybe I'm too close to this subject to describe it accurately.
I'm not saying that Johnny Cash wrote the subject lyrics, nor do I have a related mule coin. What I do have is a group of items leading me to believe that Jay Johnson was a fan or acquaintance of Johnny Cash - as evidenced by a Johnny Cash song book personally autographed from Johnny Cash to Jay Johnson, a Time magazine focusing on the passing of Johnny Cash with an address label in the name of Jay Johnson, a page copied from somewhere showing how to form rudimentary guitar chords, and three pages of hand written lyrics or prose if you prefer, which if sung as written, would fit with the music of the Johnny Cash song I Walk The Line. I recognized the "fit" immediately because of my experience playing guitar in county western groups. The subject lyrics referring to "love that mule of mine" and other coin references contain a lot of words and phrases crossed out and replaced with substitutes resulting in a pretty messy work with quite a bit of information.
The lyric pages are not signed, nor do I have any idea about who authored them or why they were written. They could have been a joke or maybe part of a retirement roast. I don't know. What I do know is I find the story fascinating and I want to share it through proper channels before it is lost to history.
Honestly, I think you are simply holding clever lyrics.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I'd love to see some photos.
Jerry1, have you learned of any other evidence of a connection between Johnny Cash and Jay Johnson?
Coincidentally (an immaterially), Jay Johnson was hired by Collector's Universe (our host) as Director of Business Dev't around the same time Johnny Cash died and his image later appeared on the cover of Time Magazine (2003).
Lance.
Odd (and hence unlikely) venue to make a confession to a felony. No less odd, though, is the subject matter as reportedly written.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Would you be willing to share where (what town) you got these in? I turned up an address in VA (perhaps not current as of the last couple years) for his wife.... I am not the best at Internet searches, but her name is JoLee Johnson, sometimes also written as Jo L Johnson.
She might ultimately be the best resource for authentication, at least of his handwriting.
I hope it is all true, as it would be a fun story, Even if JJ did author those lyrics I still think he might have just been playing around, but it is interesting just the same.
Johnson signed a lot of stuff as Mint Director, and Johnny Cash signed a lot of stuff as a celebrity. If you post a copy of the writing here, somebody might be able to determine who wrote it.
I think the hard part of this has passed away and only if he was here to say. Yes I did it or no I was just funning in my book or if he even wrote it. That is the big key to all of this Yes, No, or maybe so kind of a cool story. Post a pic before the FBI knocks on your door and no one can see it for ever.
Hoard the keys.
If Jay Johnson indeed had the mules made to his order, how easy would it have been for him to have gotten them out of the mint? Surely there would be at least one more person complicit with him.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I am sure that Johnson had nothing to do with their striking. I was one of the first people to discover that multiple die pairs had been used to strike the mules, and when I asked him about this fact at the 2000 ANA Convention in Philadelphia he was totally unaware that this was the case.
And here's some other information on the coins:
http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page21a.html
Lost me at the beginning of the "story." Is it just that, "a story?"
Very interesting. Take a picture with your cell phone or use a scanner and post the pictures on here. There are lots of folks around here who love to research this kind of stuff even if it impossible to be 100% certain.
If you don't have a fancy cell phone, maybe get the grand kids to come take a picture with their phones.
Jerry1, not quite sure why you started a new thread. You already have a Sac thread.
this thread will go nowhere without scans of the documents
Very interesting story though.... and that reminds me... I have two or three mint rolls of Sac's from Philadelphia.... never opened.... hmmmmmmm guess I really should check them out - not worth much as unopened rolls... Stay tuned folks...
Cheers, RickO
I've bought and sold more Sac./Quarter Mules than
anyone, and I can tell you that none of them came
from any source close to Jay Johnson, nor has there
been, in close to 17 years, any hint whatsoever that
any upper level Mint employee struck them, or
instructed them to be made.
And, I firmly believe that NO Mint Director would
ever do anything like that under any circumstances.
IF, it turns out that those words you see written are
from Jay Johnson, I would say he was probably
responding to all the news about the Mule, and how
it was made under his term - not that he made it himself.
Kinda like writing a love letter to a famous actress.
Not real, no chance, but fun to write about.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Fascinating lyrics. Makes for a tall tale.
BAJJERFAN
You have a good question. From Wikipedia (Sacagawea Dollar Mule Coin):
"A subsequent federal investigation into the incident found that the error coins had been struck accidentally, but two former Mint employees were guilty of selling some of the dollars, resulting in imprisonment and fines for both individuals."
Who conducted the "federal investigation" and where can anyone get a copy? I requested a copy or anything related from the Mint archive or media office (I'd have to look for the email for the office title) and received a reply that nothing was available. Further, if I remember correctly the two individuals imprisoned were press operators.
I'm attempting to post two photos; one of the inside cover of the Johnny Cash Song Book, and one of the mailing label on the September 22, 2003 issue of Time magazine. If they don't appear with this post I'll try again tomorrow.
I'd re-crop that picture to remove his home address...if his wife still lives there, I'd hate to have that out on a public forum such as this. You can edit your post to remove the picture by clicking on the little gear icon by the date of your post.
That being said...cool story.
Getting closer...
Sounds like a great story that Johnny and Jay cooked up after hoisting a few in memory of the good ol' days.
And the lyrics picture?
^^ THIS
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Lyrics from the OP so it's easier to read:
So, is the implication that Jay Johnson made these up intentionally?
If so, I would never expect for them to be found in circulation.
Additionally, The US Mint had an agreement with General Mills and Walmart where Walmart would give the coins out, upon request, on their release date. Folks picked them up by the roll or as singles until Walmart ran out which doesn't sound like there were any problems with distribution.
Whose handwriting are the lyrics written in?
The name is LEE!
I find it humorous, that what was probably just a joke between friends, is now being presented as part of a conspiracy theory. What ever happened to the moon landing conspiracy thread?
I know that error coins are hard to find.
So I had some made up at that mint of mine.
I sort of got into a little bind,
But I still love that mule of mine.
Whoever wrote that, the play on words with regard to "I still love that mule of mine" line tying Jay's real life numismatic connections to a Country Western symbol is clever. Mule as written is a double entendre. The cleverness of that line suggests to me the intent of the author was to to be creative above anything else.
As to the "I had some made up" line, there well could be more to it than just poetic license. Rarely is the whole story known and two things jump out from the above posts that at least merit further inquiry. One, the fact that two mint employees ended up getting jailed. You may well get a different account from them as to their reported role if they are willing to talk, especially if they feel they were scapegoats having been set up to take the fall. Second, that Jay was fired. A Freedom of Information request might get you closer to the real reasons and whether there were suspicions about any personal involvement with regard to his having used his position at the mint to "get [out of] a little bind" (financial or otherwise).
How did Jay die? Reportedly he collapsed and died of a heart attack, but was an autopsy performed to rule out being poisoned? He had a high profile life that included being a reporter and a U.S. Representative prior to his mint duties. Did he even have a history of heart trouble? Speaking of "conspiracy theories" there is of course the (albeit likely far fetched) one linking the litany of names of deceased persons who have reportedly had out of the ordinary causes of death and some connection to the gentleman who "hired" Jay to be the mint director. As an aside there does not seem to be anything in Jay's reported past work experience as referenced on Wikipedia that would have qualified him to be the mint director, but there could of course be more that is just not mentioned.
Elvis Lives !
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
if you were uber famous and you decided you did not want to famous anymore...to be just a "regular" person, what would you do?
how does thrust work with no gravity?
@everyone remember that anything that somebody planned to have happen is a conspiracy. so, the moon landing in particular, was conspired whether it happen or not. to dismiss anything as a conspiracy theory is not a dismissal.
i'm just trying to keep this thread interesting. i'm not saying that the moon landing didn't happen or that elvis is alive. i believe the official story that elvis landed on the moon!
Ok, here you go folks, page one of three.
But this is all I'm giving for now. Why? A little about me. I'm a partially disabled Viet Nam veteran. I love my country and hate corruption in government. I'm as honest as they come and I will not compromise my integrity.
What I've offered you is a look at a collection of documents I bought at an estate sale. After initially reading them I was confused by their content, but yet interested enough to research them further. My research yielded more questions that remain unanswered today. I am definitely not implying anything nor pointing fingers at anyone, especially Mr. Jay Johnson, who by all accounts served honorably at many levels. By presenting this look at my materials I was hoping someone would come up with a plausible explanation for their content. Was there a roast for Mr. Johnson upon his retirement where something like these lyrics were used? Or was someone in the "Mint family" (my term) known for this sort of thing, or any other explanation. Does anyone recognize the handwriting? I'd love to find an explanation.
If you re-read my initial post I asked for help with that kind of information, or suggestions on where to go, who to talk to, etc, to try to help me make some sense of this material. Comments such as "Elvis Lives" do not make me feel valued. I was hoping for better. I'm a note taker. I have a written record of everything that has happened relative to this subject since it started. I am at the point where I just might write the final chapter and leave it for my children to deal with some years down the line.
Just a question Jerry1. Why not share the rest of the information?
Sorry you didn't get or appreciate my
sense of humor. I did not intend to
make you feel less valued.
I think you missed my point...
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Jerry, Fred is the guy you want to talk with as he is in the know about these mules ....
If nothing else, Jerry 1, you deserve a nod for the most interesting post of the week.
Good luck with your search for more information.
And welcome to the forum.
"If you re-read my initial post I asked for help with that kind of information, or suggestions on where to go, who to talk to, etc, to try to help me make some sense of this material. "
Not sure where they will take you, but two suggestions were made. 1st, attempt to contact the two individuals who were jailed with regard to the mint mules. 2nd, submit a Freedom of Information Request to learn more about the circumstances surrounding Jay's firing at The Mint. If things look suspicious from what you learn, then you might also want to follow up to see if there was an autopsy performed to confirm that Jay's collapse was not related to being poisoned.
While learning more about how at least a number of the mules themselves most likely got into circulation might be helpful, there could me more to the story since at least the jailed mint employees were being prosecuted for attempting to profit off of them in one way or another. If in fact they ended up taking the fall for higher ups one could even imagine the remote possibility of that as motivation by them for revenge or by others for silencing. (OK, we all have seen too many police procedurals but then sometimes life imitates art and truth is stranger than fiction.
)
c'mon, man! ** get some thicker skin!
the story is far fetched. it doesn't mean it's not true or interesting.
move on with your quest. don't let stuff like someone suggesting it's a "conspiracy theory" get you down.
i have met fred before at coin shows and he's a nice guy. he wasn't trying to insult you. if you have compelling information, he's the man to share it with. if he dismisses it, don't let it bother you. you're asking for expert opinion and getting one...it might not be what you want, but you'll get it.
thanks for coming to the forum and starting this thread. it's a good read. keep on posting.
** the c'mon man thread
Jerry - don’t take anything posted here too personally – Internet forums can be tough on people in general. As for this forum, I have seen some real animosity on other threads, but I don’t sense that here.
I collect a few things in addition to coins, including signatures/documents of famous people. I took a quick look at some examples of Johnny Cash’s signature elsewhere, and although there seem to be two distinct ways he could write the “J” in his name, yours seems to be a good match for one of his signature styles. That is just a casual opinion and not an expert determination, but I would say it looks like it could be authentic, especially considering the background.
As for the lyrics, all I could find was an example of Jay Johnson’s signature and not more handwriting, so a comparison is a little difficult. But, I like the overall style and I really like the lower case “h” that appears multiple times in your lyrics – they match up really well to the “h” in the signature example I found. So, once again, not final proof, but a good shot at being real (JJ’s writing).
Where does that leave us? Likely a great find for you on a Cash autograph, and a fun and intriguing set of lyrics probably written by Jay Johnson. I hope you keep looking for answers/opinions and don’t just lock the lyrics away. I suspect they were written just for fun, but they are a great memento worthy of preservation.
P.S. – you say you are a Viet Nam vet – I figure that entitles you to the “thank you for your service” that every veteran probably hears about ten times a day, but also a “thank you for your sacrifice” since I have the impression that most VN vets did “hard time” in SE Asia and did not sit on the beach sipping a Mai Tai. And any VN era vet is long overdue for one more thing that they probably never heard when they came back during the upheaval of the late 60s and early 70s: “welcome home”.
I vote REAL as why not have hope vs being pessimistic?
The author who penned this ditty mentions 'bourse floor' I was wondering in Johnny Cash would know this terminology as I read where Jay Johnson was an avid coin collector and a rather colorful character to boot.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Fred, always thought you were a "Jim Morrison lives" - type a guy.
Blue Christmas rendition Elvis did if its the same Jay Johnson.
home.earthlink.net/~deankay/JayJohnsonBio.html