The scariest night of Obama's Presidency - One TRILLION dollar coin
TopographicOceans
Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
TopographicOceans
Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
TopographicOceans
Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
TopographicOceans
Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
TopographicOceans
Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
Comments
Last Night?
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
It would be like the 100 trillion Zimbabwe dollar. google it.
I love it
100 trillion Zimbabwe dollar
I bought a bunch of these real cheaply back in the mid aughts and gave them out to coworkers, friends and kids. Told them hey, your worth 100 trillion dollars now so you'll always have that. Had a lot of fun with them.
K
I gave away trillions 2 Christmas's ago1
I notice my post above was flagged. Making a controversial or offensive political comment wasn't my intent. Every president makes such decisions of necessity. It's part of the job. As with other presidents, most of the time he probably made the right call. I just thought it's a bit odd that he didn't think of that...... sort of like if Harry Truman didn't mention the decision to drop the A-bomb if asked the same thing. I dunno. Just seems odd to me.
Asking for a dive into the depths of political BS. Leave it alone.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Agreed. I almost bit. Leave it alone for your own good.
Obama said. "There were all kinds of wacky ideas about how potentially you could have this massive coin."
I don't think such a coin was ever really considered.
The name is LEE!
The linked video on the new $100 gold coin for the 225th anniversary celebrating diversity looked pretty cool.
Shows you what can happen with a Congress that doesn't want to do it's duty. Lots of people could have been hurt badly, and for a long time.
I recall Pelosi talking about the $1 trillion coin more than Obama (maybe she was the one picked to to float the idea).
We can ALL agree that the Simpsons episode featuring the $1 trillion note was a lot more entertaining
From a pure collector perspective, it's kind of neat that there are a number of Trillion Dollar medals for this event.
Here's one that's available now. Dan and AOCS have their own as well but I'm not sure why the AOCS version has a 2 Trillion denomination.
Wow, reading parts of this thread made me think I was at a small town coin/gun show. Rabble, rabble, lots of words signifying not much of anything. Maybe one day some will get their wish to party like it's 1799.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Sweet. Another thread that gets to go political.
And, then the ones who don't like the politics of some of the posters go off on the posters because they don't think the same way that person does. So, we call people names.
I wish I could find a COIN FORUM...must be one around here somewhere.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Porky Pig said it best, " Abadadoo abadadoo, fu America. That's all folks.
Hmmmm...looks like rain today.... Cheers, RickO
Topo baited the hook and the heavy ones bit.
Politics aside, the minting of large-denomination coins would be one way to avoid a technical default on paying the national debt. Coins are not issued by the Federal Reserve and, unlike all forms of paper currency ever issued by the U.S., are not backed by any sort of explicit or implied government guarantee. The minting of large-denomination coins is a real possibility if there comes a time when the national debt cannot be maintained or redeemed in any other way.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Who is 'he' who is vying for last place? Who are they? Be specific. Why does this placing have anything to do with minting a token? Why is a stimulus plan related to minting a token? Seems off topic, and frankly, political. I would love to counter your comments but then I would be political too, so I won't violate board rules by doing so. Maybe PCGS can start a separate forum for political posts so everyone who wants to can express their political views and interweave them with monetary policy and numismatics? Just thinkin' out loud.......
Best, SH
Why are you calling it a token? If it's made by the US government it would be a legal tender US coin and this is a coin forum. Right?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Perry I stand corrected, thanks for pointing it out, yes a legal tender trillion dollar coin. Would love to have one as a pocket piece.......
Best, SH
So would I.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Could have just made a 100 Trillion Cents
Steve
Interesting thread which has caused me to think about the subject matter and somewhat go into "legal analysis mode".
If any such $1,000,000,00.00 coin was minted, how big would it be, how dense would it be and how much would it weigh? What would it be made out of?
If the government decided to mint 20 $1,000,000,000.00 dollar coins and thereafter use same to pay off the current approximate $20,000,000.000 national debt, to whom would payment be made?
Surely not to between 1 and 20 persons or entities (as no such persons or entities solely own and thus are solely entitled to payment of $1,000,000,000.00 chunks of the $20,000,000,000.00 national debt.
Delivery of these 20 $1,000,000,000.00 coins to "payoff" the national debt would have to be paid jointly to whoever (persons and/or entities) collectively own $1,000,000,000.00 chunks of the national debt (or paid to a person or entity selected by the collective owners of these chunks of national debt to act as their agent in receiving and accepting same). Once these coins are delivered and accepted to payoff the national debt, what would the collective group of recipients do with these coins?
Disputes between each collective group of recipients over what to do with these coins would arise. If the disputes can not be solved and resolved between the disputing parties, then a partition lawsuit would have to be filed so that a court could determine what is to be done with each of the 20 coins. The outcome of a partition lawsuit can only be the issuance of a court judgment that:
requires the physical division of the subject property (each coin) in shares that would provide to each owner of the total debt their proportionate share of same (if Ms. Smith owns $100.00 in US T-Bills, I bet her share of the divided coin would be measured on the molecular, atomic or even subatomic level);
requires one or more, but less than all, co-owners of each coin to buy out the other co-owners of the coins with the buyout/purchase price being the dollar amount of the proportionate share of the co-owners who are having their share bought out; or
requires that each coin be sold (likely via a public auction) to a third party, outside buyer, with the net proceeds of each sale being split between the co-owners of each coin in an amount representing their proportionate share of ownership in each coin. This outcome would result in a sale of each of the 20 coins at a true "market value" (likely measured and determined by the spot value of the metal content of each coin at the time of the auction sale, plus some added amount for the stated face value of each coin as "legal tender", plus some added amount for the novelty/history/entertainment/ego aspect of purchasing such an item, with the total of each component of value being discounted by some percentage due to the "forced sale" aspect of a court ordered sale which would make the sale a "wholesale" vs. a "retail sale").
This type of scenario would be unlikely and highly suspect. However it could be viewed as a way of waving a magic wand to pay off the national debt in an instant (assuming the logistics and legalities can be adequately dealt with), with the debt holders that receiving the 20 coins in payment taking on all of the risk of the market present in acquiring the coins and then reselling them in the market. If they profit on a resale of each coin, good for them (though this would be unlikely). If they take a loss on a resale of each coin (likely), then they suffer a loss, write off their loss on their taxes if they can and start fresh with a new set of yearly financial statements.
The government would be able to publicly state that it "paid off the national debt", thereby preserving the "full faith and credit" of the United States.
Who knows, if someone could come up with a way to accomplish the above successfully (legally, politically, diplomatically and PR wise, etc.) to eliminate and payoff the current national debt, the USA could then try to do the same with its future unfunded liabilities.
Musing over.
The BMW forum I was a part of had a political section and it was best to stay out of it. There was a lot of division between members on each side, which sort of bled over into parts of the auto subforums. Glad PCGS does not have a political section for that reason.
Think the rain will hurt the rhubarb?
The first person who discovered that rhubarb is edible must have been starving. It's a weed on steroids that tastes horrible.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
The actual coins would not have to be paid out. They could serve as "backing" for paper money (U.S. notes, not Federal Reserve notes) that could be issued to bondholders in any denominations.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Agree. These trillion dollar coins would be deposited into an account and then checks would be written and paid out on this account.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Who? Go where?
Best, SH
If the Trillion Dollar coins are not paid out and are deposited only to "back" paper money, the national debt would still exist. What would be the purpose of making the coins, depositing same and using same to back paper money?
A psychological effect only?
Or would the making and depositing of the coins actually have some specific, defined and legally binding and effective purpose? If so, what is it?
It is interesting to observe the different mind sets of the posters here.
For those who didn’t read or understand the article, it is about leaders of the US government discussing minting a coin to prevent the United States from defaulting on its debt.
The article mentions the word “coin” nine times and “US” five times so obviously there is no relations to US coins.
I think SanctionII’s analysis provides some excellent insight to what ideas and concepts were discussed that night. Could the US government create wealth out of nowhere simply by minting a US coin? How would it be introduced into the monetary system? What rights would US bond holders have regarding a coin that could erase or reduce the national debt?
Does the president have the authority to order the minting such a coin?
The US government defaulting on its debt is a serious issue and I’m sure there was intelligent discussions that occurred that night. Some referenced the parallel with the hyperinflation that occurred in Zimbabwe and how that government dealt with it. How would the US minting a trillion dollar coin affect the US dollar in the world markets?
The United States is deeply in debt and a solution must be found because on day the bill will come due. I doubt minting a coin is the correct resolution.
Whether you consider the finances of an individual, a family, a small business, a big business, a non profit, a school district, a city, a county, a state, a country or something bigger like the EU or UN, it all comes down to making choices.
To not spend more than you earn or bring in.
Or to borrow and spend more than you earn or bring in.
If one chooses to borrow and you find you can not pay back yours debts unpkeasant things can happen to you. For individuals and entities, both private and public (below the level of a State, or the USA) one can file bankruptcy and legally extinguish some or all of your debt.
Not so with a atate or the USA. On the State level, for example California, Illinois, New York, etc. If any of them could not pay their debts and faced collapse I would expect the federal government would be asked to bail them out with fedral tax dollars. The other states and their citizens may (wiill) have a big problem with that.
On a national level, the inability of a country to pay its debts has major consequences for the country, its citizens and its creditors. Foe exame Germany after WWI, and the Soviet Union and the Eastern Block from 1989 to 1991.
Most presidents have, during their timw in office, and almost every Congress have choosen to spend (each year) more than what is brought in. Annual deficits in my lifetime ranged from tje millions of dollars, to the billions of dollars and now are in the trillions of dollars. President Obamas two terms saw the national debt double to $20 trillion. Bush 43 did the same or more. Trump will likely preside over annual deficits also.
When and how will it end?
Rhubarb? I LOVE rhubarb pie, almost as much as I love rare coins.
Well, we aren't actually going to pay it off. That's for sure. Eventually it will break the system, lead to a temporary (if we're lucky) financial crisis that will have worldwide political implications, and we'll eventually settle in to a "new normal" hopefully without devolving into tyranny or anarchy. The slide from normal day-to-day activity to catastrophe could be a gradual weakening of our economy and ability to project power & influence or very sudden. We've flirted with it already a time or two.
The idea comes from 31 U.S.C. 5112 (k) which provides that the "Secretary (of Treasury) may mint and issue bullion and proof platinum coins in accordance with such specifications, designs, varieties, quantities, denominations, and inscriptions as the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, may prescribe from time to time." It would probably be the size of a current bullion coin (very easy to strike with existing equipment, just need to make new dies) with a super inflated face value. It would then be deposited at the Treasury's account at the Federal Reserve and then used to pay off creditors just as you would write checks to your creditors from your personal bank account. Of course, it would have caused massive inflation. The Fed would have needed to increase the supply of circulating money to address the issue, but we are already printing Federal Reserve Notes at an alarming rate.
The national debt will be paid off through a period of hyper-inflation where our money will become virtually worthless. The government will then knock off a dozen zeros from our money and call it the "new dollar" or something similar. Once everything stabilizes the process will then start all over again.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No, in theory the debt would be satisfied by paying out the $20 trillion in federal reserve notes. The value of the currency would decrease significantly. This is one of the reasons that inflation is good if you have a lot of debt and bad if you are saver (unless you have inflation adjusted securities). Debt is easier to pay back during high periods of inflation.
I thought of that, but I'm sure there would be international ramifications to blatant currency manipulation.
Paying out the $20 trillion in federal reserve notes would not reduce the national debt, since that would involve additional borrowing. The government would need to bypass the Fed entirely and issue U.S. notes or electronic equivalents, "backed" by the high denomination coins. If this were done over a long period of time it would not cause hyperinflation. Economic growth and exponential improvements in technology would counteract much of the price inflation. The goal would be to replace debt-backed currency with directly-issued currency. Either type of currency could cause price inflation to get out of hand if issued in unlimited quantities, but at least pure fiat would not burden taxpayers with a huge debt that could not be paid back.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
1) The President does not decide monetary policy, for good reason.
2) The national debt is only a problem when the interest can't be paid. If we slide into a recession and taxes can't be collected near the targets planned, then you need to worry about the debt.
3) Congress controls the spending of the country and only Congress can ask for taxes.
4) The FED is independent and secretive so politicians and corporations cannot bend the decisions their way.
Also, inflation is at record low levels.
......for now. Interest rates are also at record low levels. What happens when interest rates go up and the cost of servicing the national debt greatly increases? Will the government cut spending in other parts of the government so they can afford to service this ever increasing debt or will they have borrow more? Sounds like a vicious cycle that will eventually come to an unhappy ending.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This economic situation is quite frightening. There will have to be a reckoning at some point. The gravy train will - in my opinion - derail and the crash will likely involve the world. I do not have the answer(s)... do not even pretend to offer solutions. I would like to think there are people working on the solution(s), however, it appears most are just seeking their own protective bubbles... which may or may not survive the potential economic devastation that may occur. Somewhere, somehow, this must be settled. Cheers, RickO
It CAN be done correctly in a pie. Especially if you add strawberries to the mix. That said, I agree that the taste is an acquired one.
I recall eating raw rhubarb out of a neighbor's patch as a kid. Several times in fact. Don 't remember why, though, except my friends did it too. JBN is right, It's much better in a pie.
The take-away from the article is that it is more destructive to even talk about defaulting on the debt than anything else a public official can do. The scary thing about the debt is that is takes so much of our taxes to cover the interest. Paying it down is recessionary, so that won't happen. Collecting more taxes is out of the question as well. The only thing the Politicians want to do is change the tax structure so the wealthy don't have to pay their fair share, leaving the burden on the rest. The only thing to do is accept the debt level and manage it properly.
The good side of a debt-driven economy is that in severe recessions, they have the ability (given the political will) to shorten the negative effects and restore economic order.
All true Rick.... I am hoping for drastic reductions in spending through unnecessary government 'agencies' as well as reallocation of funding.... we shall see... Cheers, RickO