If a coin could talk ......
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
I am a1907 D Barber dime
In 1998 I was sold as a PCGS Ms 66 coin at the Portland ANA
I was cracked out of my plastic and encased in an NGC Ms 68 holder
I was bought by a man named Barry to be placed in the Lilly Nicole collection as a PCGS Ms 67 CAC green bean
After the Lilly Nicole collection was sold I lingered at Rare coin wholesalers and remained unsold
Now I am again in an NGC Ms 68 holder with a CAC green bean to be sold ? In the Heritage auction in Long Beach
4
Comments
Madness!
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
These stories are very interesting, any pictures?
That sumbich is eligible for frequent flier miles.
Sounds like everyone wants to play with it but nobody wants to own it...
Six-tee-nine!.....Six-tee-nine!.....Six-tee-nine!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Back in the 1970's the 1907-d Barber dime and quarter were 2 of my favorite sleeper dates in gem. I found the quarter but never did get an all there dime. The gradeflation mania reached liftoff stage in 1998 follow the Pittman and Eliasberg sales. So I'm not surprised that a PCGS MS66 with a minor flaw has ascended to MS68 status today. I would assume the coin has some exceptional original toning and eye appeal....that trump the small defects. That didn't happen back in 1986-1995. Probably this was a 66+ quality coin back in 1998.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/barber-dimes/dimes/1907-d-10c-ms68-ngc-cac/p/1252-50340.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
Indeed, a pretty coin imo, though PCGS has sometimes not been overly fond of mottled toning like this. The right side of the reverse wreath with some notable weaknesses. I wouldn't have expected that on a 67 or a 68....which could be why this was a PCGS 66 back in 1998. Is strike going out the window now as well when a coin is otherwise pristine and attractive?
I love a good coin tracking thread
It's one of those grades. Now someone needs to crack it and keep it in an intercept shield holder.
That coin has been to more shows than I have, LOL.
I'll wager that my 1907D dime in VG has more, and better, stories to tell if it could talk.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
One of these days it is going to be dropped and stepped on while being cracked and will debated thereafter as MS61 or MS62.
Since 1998, per the above, we have three trips to TPGs, and two to CAC. At the risk of being banned, Imo, this is an example of what is turning people off to the hobby.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
In my humble opinion, the coin should be graded as an ms 66+ by PCGS because of the weak strike and attractive toning.
It should be priced somewhere south of $ 10,000 in today's market.
I do collect Barber dimes !
All I read was. I sold for to little money then some one sold me and made more money then sold for to little money again, now some one is going to make more money.
The American way land of the free love it.
Depending on what side of the fence you are on you either made money or you lose a lot of money! keep a good head and eye and you will be fine, Love the story should of been a book. How money is lost and made in coin flipping.
It's not away only with new mint items.
Hoard the keys.
Frankly, I am glad they cannot talk... the constant chatter would drive me insane....
Just shut up and lay there.... Cheers, RickO
Stewart
This thread demonstrates Mark Salzbergs whole argument!
First pcgs grades it ms66. Ngc says are you kidding me? this is an ms68.
Submit again to pcgs and they say "fine" and give it a 67.
Goes back to ngc and they say "this baby is still a beauty" 68.
Consistency!
1907-D and 1909-D dimes in MS decreased in price over the past 15 years or so. I bought a 1907-D in PCGS MS63 in a 1989 OGH, which I had to send back to PCGS for regrading (in 2006) in order to satisfy the previous owner. I was disappointed that it came back MS64, and I had to pay quite a bit more for it. I think greysheet bid was $2300 for it in 2006, and that's what I paid. I owned it for 8 years, and the price did nothing but drop, even while much of the coin market was moving up from 2006-2008. I cut my losses and sold it last year, and it ended up being the biggest burial in the history of my collection. I think I probably got $1200 for it. I don't remember the exact amount, and I don't want to. PCGS price guide in MS64 is presently $1,300. I didn't do much better with the 1909-D from that set, but the 1895-O that came with it was nice, and it's bailing me out on both coins (still have it).
Joebb21 - how does this thread demonstrate Mark Salzbergs argument ?
There was never any collector that believed this coin was an ms 68
My fantasy would be that PCGS and NGC
Should agree that this coin be graded
MS 66 + . Then the buying market could take over.
I have two MS 68 Barber dimes in my set and this 1907D is not within 2 points
Of my 1893 O nor my 1911.
Most of the ms 67 coins in my set are also better than this 1907 D
Rhedden's experiences don't surprise me. Being underrated and/or being a non-key date play into this situation. There are enough MS64 to MS65 1907-d dimes to satisfy anyone who would want one. It might not be until solid MS66 where gem set demand might catch up to supply. And those MS66's were the MS65's of 1989. Scarce dates in MS63 to MS64 grades in many sets from Barber dimes to Saints have been generally hammered as time goes on. There's just too few building sets in those grades. To most people those are type coins. The few that want the dates would be looking at gem quality.
In my June 1989 PCGS pop report (3 years of PCGS) the total pops of MS 1907-d dimes was 11. Compare that to the 250+ pieces each for several common dates....and approx 3750 total MS pieces for all dates in grades of MS60-68. In my mind those 11 pieces were certainly a value if the premium was reasonable. The grades were 2-61, 1-63, 5-64, 1-65, 2-66. At least for that point in time, the lone MS63 or 65 would have been the "value" coin. That wasn't enough coins to cover the number of set collectors no matter how you sliced it. Compare those tiny pops to today's 59 total pieces (reduce that for resubmissions). Two different worlds. There are a similar number over at NGC too. These days, there are likely more coins that set collectors for everything but the highest pop tops.
So every time a coin is graded by NGC PCGS, etc. a tiny chip is PERMANENTLY installed on the edge (they are much thinner than a dime now) with the unique tracking ID. A tiny "cut" about 1 reed thickness is made on the edge, pick a standard spot, and bond it on. It is is removed, it leave a little flaw in the reeding or edge.
If a coin goes back for regrade, without the plastic, the chip shows what it was.
The graders, if they change the grade, must post a PUBLIC DISCLOSURE as to WHY the grade changed.
If the coin comes back without the chip: Body Bag or review by "the panel" to determine what it was, ($5000 fee, or something)
I am trademarking the NGC/PCGS "Can't we all just get along" holder. Coins can be sent to a special panel, composed of 3 graders from NGC and 3 from PCGS, 5 of 6 must agree on a grade, and then in is encased.
Mustangmanbob, that would have been a great thing to do in 1996. But the horses have all left the barn. 20 yrs of upgrading can no longer be unwound. We are stuck with that damage. Though I'm sure the TPG's would love to see all 60+ MILL of the coins they have graded to come back again...and again.
I just collect coins that, for the most part, are what they are and aren't (generally) of a quality that makes slabbing them a financially worthwhile endeavor. Guess I'll never get rich doing that. Bummer!
The problems are :
grading is just an opinion.
grading standards change over time.
Or collectors could just learn to grade & form their own opinions. I'm starting to lean toward authentication and the grade/no-grade call as the TPGs most valuable function
_ I'm starting to lean toward authentication and the grade/no-grade call as the TPGs most valuable function_
I'm with you, except for the grade/no grade thing. I think they should NET GRADE EVERY SINGLE AUTHENTIC COIN.
I say, take 20 or 30 or 50 points off if you have to, for that scratch or cleaning or whatever, but APPRAISE the damned thing.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Its the 18th century coins that I wish could talk. It is these coins that have the real interesting stories that could be told. I made a list of what they were traded for and could only come up with about fifteen different goods and services they could be used for when first circulated. Here are a few:
Company in the night
Buy something to drink or eat.
Rent
Gun power and associated shooting materials.
Gambling
Farm implements and animals.
Taxes
The lower the grade the better the stories would be.
Stewart- it was a sarcastic remark that mark can use to prove ngc's consistency that when they grade a coin they give it the correct grade the first time.
Clearly john likes it as an ms68. I havent seen it in hand so I cant give it a "fonz thumbs up or down"
That mark on the face though makes me want to say no to ms68 though....
I think that coin wouldn't have much to say other than was kept in a dark box for over a hundred years.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
...another drive-by fruiting of a coin you plan to beat the life out of on a public coin forum...right before you win it at auction on the cheap? Its no wonder you are loaded, Nice Work
If I were a talking Barber Dime, I'd be asking for a new set of clothes: PCGS 67 with a gold bean.
Fortunately, I am not a talking Barber Dime.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Just curious... I am not a Barber Dime guy... So this is the question- Is comparing the 1907-D to an 1893-o and a 1911 a reasonable yardstick to say whether or not the 1907-D is worthy of a 68?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Yes.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Joebb21 - with this 1907 D Barber dime ,John clearly made a mistake. He put a green bean on it when it was graded PCGS Ms 67 and not a gold bean . He is human and does occasionally
Make a mistake.
Coinkat - I submitted 120 Barber dimes to CAC and got 113 green beans and 6 gold beans. I know a little about Barber dimes talking to me.
3keepSECRETif2rDEAD - I have been following this coin since 1998. I will bid $8,000 plus the juice but I will not get it because the consignor paid more than $10,000 for the coin
FYI it is better than the 66 in my set.
All I know is that JA very rarely, if ever, slaps a gold bean on a MS67 bust, Barber, or seated type coin. They are very rare. I think there are 5 total MS67 gold beans from Bust through Barber dimes. And even more surprisingly, only 3 Merc dimes. A total of 8 pieces covering 1796-1945. The issue here is what does JA like in MS67 gold CAC Barber dimes....not what Stewart likes.
Slapping a gold bean on a 5 figure coin while still in the holder is high risk operation for CAC as they can't see the coin raw. It's the ultimate in "crossing" as you're going up a grade to boot. No one else does this. Once the TPG's upgrade the coin, then JA's risk is greatly reduced. This has more to do with business risk and common sense than inventing the notion that JA "made a mistake." The gold CAC is a great marketing tool, helping to bring a lot more great coins to CAC for review...ideally giving them first shots down the road at fresh coins that are obviously under-graded.
This thread needs a picture. Here's my 1907-D that was also in an NGC holder prior to it being graded by PCGS.
I have no idea if it's ever been to CAC.
MS66 according to both, but maybe I can send it back ATS and get a 67+* or something.
Very nice Barber dime David. It shows the same general striking weaknesses as the MS68, though maybe not as severe. Your coin seems like a deal in a 66 holder. There are some tics and scuffs if I'm judging the photo correctly. No idea if it would CAC or not....though I don't see why it wouldn't. I think 66 is the right grade. In 1988 it probably would have graded MS65.
Roadrunner - I will disagree with you. JA and myself like the same things in Barber dimes.
As a fact he gave 3 different Ms 67's in my set gold beans. An 1892, a 1905 O and a 1910.
And you said he only gave out 5 gold beans to Ms 67 's Bust through Barber. Don' t you think
We like the same coins ?
Thanks RR. I don't have enough experience grading Barbers to confidently differentiate, but my gut says 66 or 66+. I was joking about the higher grade (although I do think it should star at NGC). I just took out the coin to look at it and interestingly, the reverse has toned a bit in the holder since I took that photo (about 2 years ago).
It is rather interesting that your set submission to CAC produced the only 3 gold CAC MS67 Barber dimes that JA has ever done. Did not expect that. My point was that no one is a JA clone or even a Stewart clone. I can see you two agreeing on coins 2/3 of the time. I would be surprised if out of all the coins in your set, that the two of you agreed exactly on what coins would get gold beans and which ones would not even sticker (assuming there was even one of those). Maybe you guys are twins?
It's not hard to recognize a coin that is probably a grade higher than the holder suggests. Those stick out like a sore thumb to most of us. The only question is whether it's low end, average, or strong for the next grade higher. And that determines whether they actually get a gold bean. Now if you also own the only 2 seated dimes in MS67 with gold CAC stickers....I will admit you and JA are in fact as one. I typically like the same seated and Barber coins that JA does, but at no more than a 75-85% rate....especially when it comes to dipped coins. If the coin market were solely based on buying coins that JA would like, we'd all raise our standards and ignore 65% of the slabbed coins in the market. And just to be sure we met those standards, we might want to err on the very conservative side and reject 75%-90% of the coins out there. Wouldn't do a whole heck of lot for the hobby though. But, we could all do it if that was the next perceived market wave. Fortunately, for now, most people still buy what they like, not neccesarily what JA likes. Often times the two are very similar any ways.
Shylock:
So do I, more importantly, there is a lesson to be learned. For relatively expensive coins, there should be greater emphasis upon pedigrees and expert opinions from various sources. There should be less reliance upon current certified grades.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
Insightful10@gmail.com
Too many beans can cause gastric distress.
If you don't know the history you don't know the coin. Pushkin
yeah, all this regrade, upgrade, crossover, grade inflation, sticker and associated stuff makes me barf!