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How Does a PCGS Grader determine an MS 66+ coin from an MS 67
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
I believe it is in the look. If you know your series
In look by knowing luster, strike and toning and you have seen enough ms 66+ coins as well as
Ms 67 coins, you get pretty good at it.
I am a staunch fan of the original skin on a coin
When you learn this well the price difference
Should be well worth your time and study.
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Agree and while the grades 66+ and 67 don't apply to the series I collect you could just as easily substitute grades and the post would be just as relevant
Latin American Collection
Stewart is, unfortunately, correct.... as long as grading continues without measurable standards, and is left to human opinion, it will be 'in the look'....Cheers, RickO
How can anyone give an answer to this with a straight face?
My point is, if there is a definite answer, then if you cracked out and resubmitted all ms66+, then they would all grade the same all the time and never regrade lower or higher.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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If you cracked out an MS66+ coin and resubmitted for grading,, what is the chance that it will come back again as an MS66+?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It's not the grader, but his/her stomach that often makes the determination. Too weak or too strong coffee, a chewy piece of meat , or a little too old fish sandwich will almost always guarantee a 66+. Slow rush hour traffic can be another factor favoring the "+". On the other hand cheap wine is a tossup, with the grade depending on the amount consumed during lunch. The are many enigmas and secrets that lurk in the grading rooms.
Grader opinion ... but the most important opinion should be that of the buyer.
Depends if the grader had a good lunch earlier.
He asks Andy.
That's a pretty nice 66, but not quite a 67 X 3 people = 66+.
The plus thing is a bit too finely divided IMO, but in Peace dollars between 63-67 there's enough difference that it's reasonably consistent. I can usually see it & I usually agree. Exceptions abound!
I don't know how graders do it, but I have my own rationale for whether or not a coin is worth MS67 money to me. Keep in mind that I collect proof Type in this grade range, not Morgans or gold, or any other series. There is a BIG jump between PR66 and PR67 for most of the coins I collect, so there had better be some kind of tangible difference in the coins.
To me, an MS67 or PR67 is a no-question, superb Gem. It's got drop-dead eye appeal that is obvious upon casual inspection, and when given a rigorous technical examination, nothing will turn up outside a couple of tiny spots or contact marks. It must have a razor strike, period.
An MS66+ or PR66+ is a coin that LOOKS like a 67 upon casual inspection, but when given the technical examination, there's some little defect that makes you think twice. For example, there could be a carbon spot hidden in the devices, or a little hairline or mark in an inconspicuous place, which ought not to be seen on a 67.
That being said, there are a lot of coins in 67 holders these days that I wouldn't buy for the inflated 67 prices. Most of my proof Type coins are in PR65 or PR66 holders, and a lot of those holders have solid blue labels.
This novice thinks that plus grades should be eliminated...they are too subjective...
A) At some point I read an article about judges in court and there was a statistically significant difference about the verdicts handed down in the morning vs. in the afternoon. So yes, time of day, strength of coffee, did the grader get in a fight with their spouse the night before, did their team win the big game last night, etc., all apply.
B ) There's an art and science to grading. If it were pure science then the computers would be doing it all by now. I know it was tried 20 years ago or whatever, but nowadays computers can look at photos, pull out the fingerprints of someone, and then build a replica that could open up the fingerprint-protected iPhone. The amount of processing power in graphics cards to do image processing is unreal. But there's subjectivity.
C) I have only cracked out and resubmitted a coin one time. I bought an ANACS AU55 1909 $2.5 and it came back as a MS60 from our hosts. I only wanted it in the PCGS plastic just to be consistent. I was actually a bit bummed, as I view 60 as a flawed grade when it comes to gold and would have preferred to get a 53 (which is what I had felt it was, but that series is really hard for me to grade). I can't imagine trying to make a living by buying coins cracking them out and going for the upgrade. (I'm sure folks who do that couldn't imagine doing my job either). That to me would take a bunch of fun out of the whole thing, especially given that some of the grading is subjective. However, if you're able to spot a 66 and turn it into a 66+ and up the value by a couple grand, hey there's probably a thrill in that.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
Art not science.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
It's about surface preservation, at least in the Walker series. A 67 must not only have a great strike and blazing luster but must be very smooth and free of ticks and wispy abrasions. A few too many will cause a grader to give it a 66 or 66+. That being said, I've seen A LOT of 67s that look way more 66 and vice versa. So, yes, it is quite subjective for sure.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Sometime I scratch my head on the difference between 66 and 66+.
But to the OP's question------The look. The plus grade also gives the grader and PCGS an out when in doubt.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
What about if they went to "minus?"
It could be a whole new category to worry about.
Plus it could save the ink of the vertical line in the +
No? Darn.
1-58: a science
60-70: an art
Why not add a "++" ?? Confuse us newbies even more...
Grading is subjective and that is not going to change. There is not a set answer to the question because even that is an opinion. There seems to be doubt and some level of collector insecurity or just the need for reassurance with grading... Especially at the 66+ into 67 level.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I agree. Same for 67+ to 68 in appropriate series.
Most folks don't bother with the esoteric grades. Some specialize in such.
A conundrum that will last the rest of our lives.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
A 65+ is just a euphemism for 66-, as 65+ sounds better.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
That's a thought worth considering.
As per the PCGS Grading Standards:
MS/PR-66 Few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, good strike
MS/PR-66+ Very few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, very good strike with superior eye appeal
MS/PR-67 Virtually as struck with minor imperfections, very well struck
MS/PR-67+ Virtually as struck with very minor imperfections, very well struck with attractive eye appeal
So according to this, the difference between 66 & 67 comes down to "marks/hairlines" vs. "minor imperfections".
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
It's the same thing. Remove the numbers mix it up and they will not know witch is witch.
Hoard the keys.
to me its a coin that has the look of a 67 but something about it distracts enough that it shouldnt be given the 67 but is well deserving of the 66+
I like to think of the personality of a coin
At what price would I like to take it home with me ?
A hidden plus would be that I feel the coin is better than the present PCGS assigned grade
Remember that making money from doing what you like/love is a sweet thing !
the primary difference is gut - but someone else told me at a recent show - if its a dealer's coin then 67, if its a collector than 66 or 66+.
It may be time to try computerized grading again.
Computers ought to be able to easily handle technical grading by now, even to manage refined definitions of MS 61 v. MS 62, MS 66+ v. MS 67, etc. etc. It all has to do with the definitions programed.
And then leave the intangibles (eye appeal, whether toning is a good thing or a bid thing, etc.) to the buyer.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Flip of a coin, of course!
The intangible here is of course "eye appeal." Does it have superior eye appeal for the grade? If so, a solid for the grade MS66 (and sometimes lower end coins) ends up with the MS66+ grade.
I do find it odd by the definitions above that MS66+ requires "superior" eye appeal, while a 67+ requires "attractive" eye appeal. You would think it would be the other way around...or at worst....they are equal. Almost suggests that MS67 coin need only be "less than attractive"....or neutral, average, etc.
Maybe it goes something like this:
Grader #1 gives a 66
Grader #2 gives a 67
Grader #3 gives a 66
Final grader gives a 67
Total is 266, divide by 4 equals 66.5
66.5 = 66+
Later, Paul.
Crackout guys and sharp graders have been using "minus" and "plus" before PCGS even added the "+."