Your Experiences with SEGS Grading?
BustHalfBrian
Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭✭
If someone hypothetically just bought a SEGS-graded coin for $1500 and they hypothetically have never purchased a SEGS-graded coin before, should they be concerned that the coin is illegitimate, hypothetically? 
Lurking and learning since 2010. Full-time professional numismatist based in SoCal.
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It depends. I have a SEGS 1913 Buffalo that I bought. But I bought it for the coin and not the holder.
SEGS recently graded coins are fine - last 8-10 years. Before that, I think it was a learning experience.
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Should not be any concern,as long as there is a return policy,paid with PP/credit card and know how to grade.
Other than samples, haven't ever bought one.
Set your own standards for grading and stick to them regardless of what the holder for any TPG says. (Just make sure you know how to grade.) The physical SEGS holders themselves are of very high quality and are, in my opinion, the best physical holders on the market.
For me, SEGS slabs are very hard to crack out with their soft plastic so I stay away from them
I have had very little experience with SEGS since I retired as a dealer. While I was a dealer, there were some nice and interesting coins in SEGS holders, but the consistency of the grading was uneven. You really had to evaluate every piece, and you could take nothing for granted with respect to the grade.
A couple of SEGS coins come to mind for me. One was an 1866 With Rays Shield Nickel. It was properly graded as an MS-64, but there was a catch. The coin had a large planchet lamination that was still attached to the coin. The lamination was noted on the slab label. It made the piece interesting, and from the historical perspective, it provided a view of the technical problems the mint had with producing the first nickels.
Still, neither PCGS nor NGC would have graded this coin at that time. It would have come back in a body bag if it had been submitted to either of those graders. Today the coin could be graded by those companies with the error noted. At any rate an 1866 Shield Nickel with this mint caused defect is still worth less than a piece struck on a perfect planchet.
The second coin was an 1847-C quarter eagle. That coin was also MS-64, and it was quite nice. I got that piece on consignment from a dealer who also had the same issue in a PCGS MS-64 holder. The SEGS coin was marked $6,000 while the PCGS piece was priced at $20,000. The coins were virtually identical except for a very minor tic that was on the reverse of the SEGS coin. I still think that the piece graded MS-64; it just was not quite as nice as the PCGS coin. It certainly was "a bargain" given the price difference. I sold that coin to one of the major dealers, and I will guarantee you that that coin was cracked out of that holder in short order.
Today I would not pay $1,500 for a SEGS graded coin. I would do for a token or a British piece (Does SEGS grade foreign coins? I have a Spanish Milled Dollar in a SEGS older.), but those are items that I still collect raw. I just don't pay the grading game very much these days.
And yes, SEGS holders are much harder to crack that other slabs. I joke that they are made of "kryptonite. "
My focus always is - and should be - the coin, not the holder. If you can grade, if you know the coin series you are looking at, then the holder is mainly a consideration for resale or cost to reholder. Cheers, RickO
"I will guarantee you that that coin was cracked out of the holder in short order"
Maybe in not-so-short order.
Like the others say the SEGS slabs are tough!!!! PCGS, NGC are much easier...(I'm an equal opportunity slab cracker for my type sets).
Its been several years, but I actually had a few segs coins I bought that upgraded at pcgs(they were cracked)
42/1 dime from segs 30 to pcgs 40, 53 arrows half from vf-35 to xf-40 , and a few other morgans, but don't remember the dates per say(nothing big, as I don't recall)
When I was first getting back into coins, paid a little tuition on a one sided PL Morgan that SEGS had graded as a PL. As Bill mentioned, their grading has been inconsistent, and at times compromised. This particular Morgan was purchased from a person who had access to the inner workings of the business. Haven't owned another SEGS graded coin.
Apparently no grading guarantee on the older slabs, an unhappy buyer of a "Segs MS66" had it downgraded by them into a current MS64: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/segs-not-honoring-guarantee.279756/page-22#post-2605883
Have bought several nice coins out of segs holders that graded the same or close at a significant discount...also bought an 1838 large cent that went from MS63 to MS64
One of HA's experts told me that Larry Briggs knows more about varieties, etc. than most numismatists, he said that what Larry forgot in numismatics is more than he knows. But there are big limitations on grading services without the double verification at least. http://payload244.cargocollective.com/1/0/25409/7186546/One Man Band.jpg
What is meant by illegitimate? Counterfeit? Improperly graded? Misattributed?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Never crack! Use a table saw....much easier and safer for you and the coin. No plastic splinters to scratch the coin or jab you.
Not to worry...I was using crack in the generic sense. At risk of being sexist, my solution to the slab cracking process became me handing the slab to my husband who is the actual 'cracker'. Saws and protective gear are involved. It used to be a vise grip and a hand tool of some sort but he has the fancy table kind now. He may have mentioned another SEGS slab might be grounds for divorce. Or, at the very least, woth some new tool for his collection.
Always buy the coin not the holder. I found some nice keepers in odd holders, they all make mistakes look at everything you can and you will be rewarded from time to time for your hard work. That is just me Dumb Type2.
Hoard the keys.
I would be concerned that any coin I bought in a non-top tier TPG holder would not stand the test of time and essentially become a raw coin standing on its own "conservative" merits. And even for top tiered TPG holders, the coin still has stand on its own merits to some extent since actual trading ranges can be a point in either direction despite the assigned grades....and I've even seen up to 2 points differential on coins over $10K in value. Anyone spending serious money on coins has to realize this. If you can't crack your coins out their holders and not be very scared afterwords if they can make it back, then you're relying too much on the plastic.
Back in the 2000's there was a private mint that made a Jefferson nickel Felix Schlag pattern reproduction that was pretty cool. I bought one that was already in a SEGS holder and another raw. I sent the raw one to SEGS so they would match. I requested that the wording on the label be specific to match the other one that they already slabbed. It came back different. When I e-mailed to inquire I received an extremely insulting reply. It was along the lines of they wouldn't use that wording because I was likely going to try and pass it off on someone as a rare coin or something, basically saying I was a scammer. Needless to say that was the end of my relationship with SEGS. Here's what the coin looked like:
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
All of the above, minus grading. I assumed when buying the coin that it would not cross at grade.
Let me cut to the chase; the coin is described as a proof strike, but I'm concerned it is actually a business strike, which would make it worth 1/10th of what I paid.
Is my concern unfounded?
Now that it is no longer "hypothetical" the members here should be able to give a good opinion..if. If you are able to image the coin now or when you get it and send more info on it, many will help out.
I've glanced at a couple hundred SEGS coins and tokens at shows over the years and I've only ever purchased 2.
The last time I sat down to look at 70+ in one seating I came to the conclusion SEGS seems to grade on a emotional scale not technical.
Not excusing the tone of their reply, but there are probably a couple of reasons for being careful about the text on fantasy coins:
Depends on potential buyer - I treat those like raw coins.....blue book MS60 my best offer on SEGS Uncs.
Their concern SB they will get low offer or no offer when selling. ANACS, ICG, NGC, PCGS grading services recognized by eBay and Teletrade.
I ignore / disregard SEGS coins when browsing eBay or shows.
disregard.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I think your concern is legitimate. I would not worry about SEGS missing a counterfeit coin or misattributing a variety. Proof vs. circulation strike can fool many professionals on some issues. The definitive expert, IMO, is John Dannreuther.
SEGS should have a guarantee associate with the method of manufacture (as opposed to grading opinion). Good luck and I hope it's the coin you think it is.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I saw these listings on a thread, How do you suppose PCGS or NGC would grade these Segs coins: http://www.linumis.com/images04/25964.jpg Segs MS60, AU58
http://www.linumis.com/images06/29417.jpg
http://www.linumis.com/catalog.php?categoryId=010120015&itemType=uscoins
http://www.linumis.com/images01/19852.jpg Segs MS65
A bit off the original intent of the thread but worth noting:
In November of 2001 I purchased an uncirculated roll of 1962 Franklin Halves to be used for my coin club's 40th anniversary souvenir. All of the coins were "white" None had been dipped. I submitted the coins to SEGS at the fall Michigan State Numismatic Society show and asked they have a special inscription on the label which mentioned the club's 40th anniversary. SEGS was happy to comply and the coins were returned, slabbed, by mid-December. I still have my coin and note that it is 100% "white" after more than 15 years in the holder. I also thought all of the coins were correctly graded. (Mine is graded MS64 Full Bell Lines.)
I would be OK with their attribution of a proof strike.
As for the grades, they can be rather inconsistent (or should I say more inconsistent than PCGS/NGC) but the SEGS coins I have seen/owned seem to be 1-1.5pts high.
My one and only SEGS purchase is this coin back in 2007. I think I paid a little over $100 for it on Ebay.
Cracked it out and submitted it this year. Came back PCGS 66, so I guess I dodged a bullet there.
Good call. SEGS did you a solid on that one.
This coin is the only one I have a pic of that came from an SEGS holder. Yes they are difficult to crack, but I wanted it in my Dansco at the time. I thought it was properly graded and the holder even mentioned a "mark on the neck".
Brian,,,, Yes Larry knows more than any 3 other dealers I know combined.. I have seen him at shows for the last 15 years and at every one there are always multiple dealers at his table asking him for his opinion on "all the above"... I am sure he will be at a show near you soon, take said coin to hi for a show and tell....
Second How about a picture of said coin and holder
SEGS slabs don't "crack", they kind of just "flow" like molasses on acid. So no flying splinters concern there.
I never owned a SEGS and I am not sure how good they are at counterfeit detection but I am sure they have some decent coins for the grade if you know what you're doing. I only buy NGC and PCGS, so I wouldn't buy a SEGS, unless I was thinking crack-out and re-submit to one of the big two.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I have owned some because they were too cheap to not buy. You will go broke saving so much money on them also.
He has the knowledge of three men, Moe, Larry and Curly! Just kidding, don't harsh my mellow bro!
If it's a controversial MS vs. Proof issue, where experts fight about the attribution, I wouldn't trust it.
If that is the case then why would the attribution of ANY TPG be trusted?
I always had good luck and accurate grading from SEGS from their inception in 1998. Larry showed me one of the prototype slabs but it was too thick and heavy for practical use. I love the holder, too, after it was refined and the precise labeling Larry would provide as well as putting the reverse side "up" on doubled dies and other varieties was excellent. Unfortunately, I haven't slabbed with SEGS for quite a few years due to their undeserved (IMO) lack of respect in the marketplace. I still have quite a few coins in SEGS slabs-inexpensive ones.